Hey LeoFinance people...

in LeoFinance3 years ago

I'm seeking opinions and feedback for @khaleelkazi. He's a bit busy at the moment, so I'm taking it upon myself to get this feedback for him.

The question is...

Would you participate in a WLEO/RUNE pool?

thorchain logo.png

+

wrapped LEO logo.png

?

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I think most on Leo would know I'm pretty bullish on RUNE, as is Khal and numerous others in the community. It is now possible to create a WLEO/RUNE pool, as RUNE has now built a bridge and has an ERC20 version up and on Ethereum. Pools were launched on Sushiswap, and just in the last 2 hours, a pool has been set up on Uniswap.

I really believe that WLEO needs a second external trading pair, aside from the WLEO/ETH one. This would drive trading volume and create more arbitrage opportunities, broaden the availability of liquidity, and potentially expose WLEO (and ultimately LeoFinance) to other platforms, like Sushiswap or Balancer or so on.

However, setting up a new pool could dilute the existing pools depth. But would funds just be moved between the two, or would new money come in to the WLEO ecosystem.

The other benefit to having a second external market for WLEO is that it would be more likely that Coingecko, Coinmarketcap and the like would upgrade us to full listings with market cap stats and rankings and so on.

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So, Khal said to me in a tweet:

May need to do some posts to see if we can gather the $RUNE support from our community to make it work well

I’d be in the pool for $50k+ but I’m not sure how much RUNE liquidity we can get

So, here is a few questions, please add as much detail as you like in the comments.

1. How much RUNE liquidity can we get?

2. Is the LEOFinance community onboard with this?

3. Would you add funds into a WLEO/RUNE pool?

4. Which platform should we use? Uniswap, Sushiswap, Balancer, Something else?

5. In short, are you in?

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Please feel free to elaborate/provide feedback/question/criticize as much as you like in the comments. If you think it's a bad idea, tell us why. If you want to beg for it to happen, share why.

If you need more information about RUNE, see the following links:

There is heaps more, but those are a good starting point.

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for the feedback.

JK.

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I’m in for $25k or more on the RUNE side.

Hoping to see if there is a lot of interest from the community here. Then we can talk geyser and how we can add a new liquidity incentive pool to our ecosystem

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Needless to say, I'd be in. Would throw whatever I could into it, not as much as you, but whatever I could scrape together. My 2 favorite projects linked together...

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I think that is an interesting path to go. But there are multiple question marks:

  1. Would a Rune/WLEO pool be like on UniSwap, with a custodian having access to our tokens? Or would it be a native pool? Maybe I am confusing stuff here but I remember you and Khal always talking about native Bitcoin on a Rune pool and would a similar principle apply here? According to your question above, where to create the pool, I assume I am confusing something. I always thought RUNE would be its own trading platform.
  2. Would the incentive come out of a new geyser model and hence create more inflation on LEO or would it share the existing inflation and hence lower the income of the curation rewards and the ETH/WLEO pool?
  3. Would the pool be a long-term project? I assume so, when we are already talking about a possible new geyser model, which is usually designed for longevity. When I look at the Splinterlands pool DEC/ETH I see nearly 25% impermanent loss on my ETH and it only makes sense for me to stay in there indefinitely and just farm the rewards for as long as possible.

In any way, should there be a pool of that kind, I would throw in about 2k USD worth of RUNE/LEO.

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Thanks for the great questions...

  1. I'm suggesting a pool like the WLEO/ETH pool that is already on Uniswap. Uniswap don't have custody, everything is in a smart contract. It would be the same on other platforms if we chose that (Sushiswap for example). Native tokens would be better, but for LEO the chances of a link to the Thorchain itself in the next few years are slim to none. Would take massive Dev work from HIV dev's, and I highly doubt the enthusiasm would spread much beyond LEO people to be honest. Even getting WLEO in an active pool with native RUNE once they role out cross-chain will be a tall order. Once ERC20 capabilities are launched, the competition to get in will be massive. How many ERC20 coins are bigger than WLEO? Lots. Only one new pool cycles in every 3 days, and only if it has adequate liquidity. Could happen, but likely not this year I think. We could skip RUNE, and set up another WLEO pool anyway, like a WLEO/USDT for example, and get the benefits of increased trading fees from arbitragers and more exposure. However, to be completely honest, I suggest RUNE as I am bullish on both RUNE and WLEO. Impermanent Loss is only an issue, the way I see it, if you don't really like one of the tokens you are pooling. I'd hate to be in a WLEO/USDT pool for example, "losing" LEO to get more tether - no thank you. I hope this all makes sense to you?

  2. Up to Khal really. I'd imagine it wouldn't involve an increase to inflation - likely to upset the majority that would not be in this pool. Also, taking more out of the existing rewards pool would upset too many and is highly unlikely. Most likely is that the existing Geyser funds would be spread to cover this also. This could hurt the depth of the pools if it reduces peoples return on investment, and mean more people pull out and unwrap to get better returns from curating. Interesting question for Khal to ponder. Maybe the drop in returns could end up being covered by increased trading fees from arbitragers?

  3. I'd assume yes it would be long term. If it happens, my timeline for the investment would be years, personally, as I think both projects will be hugely successful over the next few years, but I am biased as a holder of both tokens. On the IL topic, would you be as upset if you were in an ETH BTC pool and lost 25% of your ETH for 25% extra BTC? IL is perspective and if you like both sides of the pair, it is irrelevant IMHO. Just my perspective, something to think about.

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Thanks for the great and detailed reply. I really like your point on the WLEO/USDT pool. Yikes. And regarding the source of the incentive for a WLEO/RUNE pool, Khal would find a way for sure that suits the project best.

I would consider it, but I wouldn't want to commit at this stage. Although I've only got 1000 Rune so I'd be near the bottom of investors.

The thing that would make me reluctant is having my RUNE drained! I think that's going to outperform LEO, and I don't really want to go into something that's going to let other people swap my Rune out until it's appreciated a little more first !

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That's a very good point. On the other hand, LEO would then be pegged to Rune as well and grow along Rune. And the draining effect is only impermanent and can always go the other way around again, when LEO starts growing into more directions.

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Yes fair point!

But it still seems to make more sense to freeload on this one and let everyone else take the risk!

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Even though a WLEO-ETH.RUNE would be a nice addition, I think it would be much better to keep focusing on the ETH-WLEO side first rather than spread (and partially dilute) our 'liquidity power'.

I think that currently Leofinance has a lot of things in the pipeline and with our current situation in Uniswap we have the 'liquidity problem' more than solved in the short term (we don't have a lot of volume anyway).

I would like to see a 'faster' launch + optimization of the new ____ project + all the token/miners airdrops rather than diluting dev work into 'more liquidity pools'.

Even more, I would say that I would prefer to create a WLEO version in Binance chain and then try to get us listed on BepSwap rather than try to link us with $RUNE in the eth side (only because we already have one). Did you think about that possibility? (honestly I don't even know if it's even possible, just a quick idea that crossed my mind).

5. In short, are you in?

'Not now, maybe in a few months'

If there's not a better use-case for devs time then yes, if this would delay the other developments then no.

Hope you understand my point, have a good Friday :)

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I completely understand your perspective on this.

Where I am coming from, is the Liquidity problem (being easily accessible quantities of LEO available for potential investors) has been solved - yes, however all those funds ($1 million worth) isn't really generating any fee income. There has been three trades on the WLEO/ETH pool in the last three days, totaling around $2000. A second pool, with a different pair, would open arbitrage opportunities that would increase the frequency and regularity of trading on the pools, and thus fee income for the LP'ers.

The main dev time would be working out the Geyser issues and so on for this. Actually setting up the pool is something Khal could do in 10 minutes. Even I could do it, without asking anyone for input if I liked. The hardest part would be paying the gas fee to actually set it up - it isn't cheap.

Developing and building a wrapped leo token on Binance chain would be alot more work I think, and Bepswap will be retired in a few months once Multi-chain roles out. I have thought quite a bit about suggesting a WLEO on Binance chain, but I think it would be spreading us too thin. It's definitely possible, but worth the time and effort? Plus Khal's dev team and @fbslo would have to learn how to wrap to a different chain, and that is more potential risk of something like the initial WLEO hack re-occurring. I have a lot more confidence that this version of WLEO is secure, personally.

I really appreciate your points of view, and am happy all sides of the discussion are being aired.

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Bepswap will be retired in a few months once Multi-chain roles out.

Actually setting up the pool is something Khal could do in 10 minutes. Even I could do it, without asking anyone for input if I liked.

Thanks fr the detailed explanation, If that's the case then I'm fine with a WLEO-ETH.RUNE pool, I would participate with something around 5K$ worth of funds into the pool to help to get the liquidity loop going (Maybe I would add more, but don't want to commit with more than 5K$ at that point). $RUNE isn't my favourite coin but as long as I researched it's a good hold with very good potential. The marketing push could be very well worth and we won't have the same window of opportunity later.

Count with me and thx for caring about LEO.

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I don't have an awful lot to invest right now. If I were to invest little by little, the answer to the question would depend on Ethereum fees. $100 per transaction would be way, way too much!

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I don't know enough about how this would work. If it would increase use and establish a strong user base then I'd anticipate it's a good thing. But what happens if Rune fails, do we fail too?

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It would mean setting up a second pool for WLEO, with the alternate token as the ERC20 version of RUNE. Thorchain is a fast growing project, current market cap of $431 bill rank 66. Links now with Sushiswap and other high profile crypto projects. It is unlikely to fail, but if it did, the people who invested into this new pool if it happens would lose some money. LEO would be fine, just some Lions may suffer a loss.

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Sounds like a plan, I'll have a look through the info on it later tonight.

I think this is great idea. I think more coin being added to liquidity will help LEO more. Also this could be start of something great.

About the exchange platform to use, I feel uniswap is the my most preferred choice.

I am onboard with this.

The other benefit to having a second external market for WLEO is that it would be more likely that Coingecko, Coinmarketcap and the like would upgrade us to full listings with market cap stats and rankings and so on.
This is great for the platform in my opinion but I ßpeak for myself only.

About adding liquidity, I don't think I can add yet but if the fund arises, I would love to

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I think it would benefit, but I am hoping lots of people give feedback, I may be wrong.

The reason I suggest Balancer in particular as an option is because WLEO could be the first RUNE trading pair there, could drive some extra liquidity Volume of trade, plus the PR benefits.

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What about the cost of the transaction fee. The Transaction fee on uniswap is quite high

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Yes, indeed the fees on everything on ETH are high, but so are the volumes of trade and potential investors. Undoubtedly it would be hard for small investors to participate.

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Yeah. I thought it was a uniswap problem alone. Seems all exchanges transaction fee on eth is quite high. Have to look at other angles of me participating

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Undoubtedly it would be hard for small investors to participate.

That's kind of my issue! I like the idea and would love to participate but only have 400 Rune (and currently unable to acquire any more). Additionally, I'm going to have to swap some of it for BTC and perhaps cash out :(

Yes in principle, but unlikely in practice I'm afraid.

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Yup, sadly playing around on ETH is not possible for many. If it boosts the price of LEO, and the growth and visibility of the project, then everyone benefits even if they are not in the pools.

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Sure it's a good initiative and I'd love to be onboard.
But the fees could be a pain for small investors, would be great to see a low fee opportunity for the Lions :)

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I think I will be in. How about BEPswap? It’s much cheaper transfer fee.

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Bepswap would be nice, but there is 2 issues I see...

  1. Bepswap will be retired soon, once multichain is launched. When that happens the competition from much larger projects than LEO will be intense.
  2. Aiming for BEPSwap would mean a bunch of Dev work to create a new wrapped version of LEO on Binance chain. His dev's are probably busy on other projects to work on that.

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I see. One further concern: if Rune price increased dramatically while LEO price does not increased, in such situation, some of Rune will be Swapped to LEO, the profits will be less than just holding Rune and LEO. Vise versus if LEO price increased dramatically, while Rune price does not increase. How do you see this? Thanks!

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Thanks, great article.

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I am getting exciting that DEFI is alive with a project inside HIVE blockchain. I am going to learn more about Leo ecosystem first as I am not a DEFI player, I never staked on these DEXs, heard of them, I am just a small fish in the crypto world still.

There is so much happening, a brigde that brought Leo to Ethereum!! ...wow!!!

More adventurous than I am now, I am not that deep into the crypto ecosystem apart from mainstream cryptos, but I will try to be a more active in the LEO community by checking the writtings, happenings and ofcourse exploring the much interesting platform. TOO COOL!!

I would participate, but now I don't want to have that kind of commitment due to lack of time.

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As a holder of RUNE, I would be interested in this and am willing to participate, as I already support the WLEO V2 liquidity pool (I also supported V1 ...). That said, I want to be very specific - I support a LEO / RUNE liquidity pool. Followed by, "right out of the gate," a key question:

Why, oh why, would we have the liquidity pool tied to ETH and the associated need to create some sort of wRUNE token (yes, I am aware that the RUNE team has already created this and the needed ERC20 "bridge" - with a 5 RUNE "conversion" fee ...)? I ask, since it was my understanding, in choosing to invest in RUNE to begin with, that they are moving ahead with a decentralized exchange concept that involves setting up native token liquidity pools.

I wrote a post about my concerns with the whole "wrapped" token idea and why I was personally looking for better solutions in the future. RUNE seems to provide one of the most promising answers and, yet, for some inexplicable reason, they have chosen to support a "wrapped" token on the ETH blockchain ...

I don't get the rationale. I do not make any profession to being an expert on RUNE (or anything else ...), so looking forward to seeing how this is answered.

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We've chatted with Khal on the round table calls a bit about this and as much as I like the idea in theory. I don't think it is the time to do it yet.

The WLEO/ETH pool still needs much more volume and the more liquidity there the better in terms of that project. I believe a RUNE pairing would pull away from it.

Also, RUNE is a pain in the butt to deal with for us U.S. folks, though this could potentially make it easier.

Additionally, with all the other LEO projects setting to launch I think this would just get lose in the mix and again, take away from WLEO/ETH.

Let me be clear though, I love the idea of WLEO/RUNE I just don't believe it is something needed in the near-term. My 2 cents.

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well, I am in the wleo/ETH pool to support the project and for the geyser rewards because as you say, we are not in there for the trading volume and the fees.
I would put up 1000 RUNE but need to look at getting that amount of LEO to balance. The geyser rewards should help

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I would love to but I don't have yet
I'm going to do research and see what's it's all about

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This large decision really illustrates the need for the governance token which is coming soon. If we were voting on this today, I would vote against a new pool at this time. In order to change my vote, I would need to run a cost-benefit analysis.

I am currently unaware of the costs of starting a RUNE/WLEO pool. I assume there would be some reward incentives for liquidity providers, but where would these rewards come from? Would rewards from the current pool be shared with the new pool? Or would rewards come from the curation rewards? Wherever these rewards come from, they come at a cost.

The WLEO/ETH pool has been extremely beneficial to the community. This pool was necessary to solve the lack of liquidity on Hive Engine. Now we have over $1,000,000 of liquidity. It amazes me how much WLEO can be traded with minimal slippage. I do fear our current pool would shrink a little to fund the new pool.

I do not think the benefits of a new pool would be anything near those of our first pool. I'm not convinced that another pool would get us full listings on CoinGecko and CoinMarketCap. I'm also not concerned about these full listings as I'm 100% confident we will see these when we are listed on more exchanges.

The biggest benefit of a WLEO/RUNE pool would be introducing some of the RUNE community to our wonderful community. I do not know much about the RUNE community so this will be difficult to evaluate, but any extra exposure is a good thing.

To answer your questions:

  1. I don't see the size of a WLEO/RUNE getting anywhere near $1,000,000. My guess is it would start around 200K or so. Of course this all depends on what kind of incentives are offered.

  2. I'm personally not on board at this moment. I don't find it necessary to start a new pool, while our first pool was absolutely necessary. Despite my opinions, it does sound like a decent portion of the community is on board.

  3. I most likely would not be adding funds to this pool. I use the words most likely because proper incentives could bring me in. Providing liquidity was a foreign concept to me before the first WLEO/ETH pool was announced. The amazing incentives drew me in. I do like the concept of RUNE so I'm certainly not opposed to getting some and getting in the pool would be way to do this.

  4. I'm only familiar with UNISWAP, but if we were starting a new pool I think it would make sense to start it on a different platform to expose our community to different users.

  5. At this moment, I'm out. This could certainly change, as my FOMO for RUNE is real.

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