Do You Even Hive, Bro?

in #hive4 years ago

hive_logo_red.jpg

Well, here we are. The day is winding down (for me anyway). The new Hive chain is stabilizing. More nodes and applications are slowly coming online. It’s been a hell of month and many people are feeling that a sigh of relief is finally in order.

While some people may be calming down a bit, I think I’m starting to get a little fired up. “Why?” you may ask. Well...let me tell you why…

Many people seem to be confused about what delegated proof-of-stake (DPoS) is and what blockchains in general were designed to accomplish. Blockchains are a form of distributed ledger technology (DLT) and, at their core, are the exact opposite of a centralized database. I think that goes without saying but there are apparently a lot of people who have yet to grasp this concept.

How they’ve managed to evade this comprehension of the very platform they’ve been using - in many cases for a few years - is beyond me. Nonetheless, they have successfully avoided such comprehension and continue to make fools of themselves.

It’s not only the ‘D’ in DLT that they don’t understand - it’s the DPoS system as well.

Over the past five weeks, we’ve been subjected to plenty of ignorant discussions and diatribes about what witnesses can and can’t do, what constitutes “decentralization,” and how “private property” has been under attack. From many of the most vocal people shouting about these topics, their understanding of the principles and concepts involved is less than rudimentary.


So let’s just dive right into the facts about this little blockchain we’re using.

Here’s how DPoS works:

  1. Any person can run any software they want on their computer.
  2. Any person running such software can choose to validate or ignore transactions from any account(s).
  3. Any user of the software can approve or unapprove any validator at any time by using their own stake.
  4. When a majority (soft forks) or a super-majority (hard forks) of validators is running the same software, then that software is what is “accepted” as the current chain by validators and stakeholders.
  5. At any time, any other group of validators can run a different version of the software and those validators can then “fork” the chain and run their own version of it, separate from the original chain.
  6. Each user participating in 1-5 is using their own property in the way they see fit. None of the steps in 1-5 contradict or counteract DPoS.


The fact that a group of people who share the same ideas and/or goals decide to run the same code on their computers - and that other people support them by approving of those decisions - is actually precisely what DPoS is, fundamentally.

It’s all about property rights (those hosting and broadcasting the blockchain on and from their computers) and free association (willingly deciding to run the same code as others are running). It’s the coordination from different people running the same software that makes the database (the blockchain) decentralized. The more people running the same software and hosting the same database, the more decentralized it becomes.

If a database and software is being hosted and run by one person who controls all of the data and transactions, then you don’t have a distributed ledger. There’s no need for a blockchain or any pretense of decentralization. This single person effectively “owns” the database.

The Steem soft fork that was deployed back on February 23rd that ignored the transactions of Steemit Inc. accounts was DPoS in action. A relatively large number of witnesses decided to run software on their computers and deployed that software in order to ensure that the database they were hosting would not be corrupted by a potential threat that could have centralized it.

When Justin Sun used exchanges and their custodial funds to then centralize the Steem blockchain, he effectively negated the entire purpose of that blockchain. Fortunately, his incompetence ensured that his developers (or complete lack thereof) could not deploy any code that could take advantage of the centralization before enough of the original community’s witnesses were able to prevent it.

It wasn’t Justin’s actions that had me concerned, however. His response, as unimaginably stupid as it was, seems to me to be a rather normal response, given his apparently vast ignorance of how blockchains work.

I was actually more surprised at some of the criticisms and actions of long-standing Steem users and stakeholders. For some of these people to make colossally dimwitted arguments about the very system they’ve been involved with for years was truly astonishing.

And then to see some users actually vote for centralization left me completely dumbfounded.

It would be easy for me to say that these people are just ignorant or stupid, or to believe that they really thought they were “just keeping the stalemate.” But I’m pretending that these people are not as dumb as they seem. Hell...I know some of them aren’t. That really pissed me off about the entire situation.

But even that isn’t the worst of it.

After the ignorance and whining over the soft fork...after the extremely reckless participation by exchanges to help Justin...after the votes of stakeholders to trash their own blockchain...we’re now left with another round of whining and crying and threatening from those who couldn’t see the inevitable, even when it was explicitly explained to them what was going to happen.

Of course, I’m talking about the Hive blockchain airdrop and the fact that a number of Steem stakeholders were not included in it. And boy, are they really upset about it now!

Earlier today, there was a discussion about these people and whether or not that decision was fair to them. After a few attempts from several people (myself included) at reasoning with the person who brought it up, I finally just laid the truth out there.

The language gets a little colorful…

“You know what irritates me more than anything? By doing what he did, Justin and his supporters put all Steem investors in a situation where our time to exit was fast-tracked and the wealth generated on Steem over the past four years will have pretty much evaporated before even a single person can fully exit. There were a lot of people on Steem who built up their craft, their followings, and their wallets over a period of four years...and in four weeks, all of that has been completely destroyed.”

“If it weren't for this hard fork, it would have been a complete loss for everyone involved and invested. And who were the people who contributed to that disgusting achievement?”

“The very people that you're now oozing sympathy for. Why in the fucking world should ANY of us care that they aren't getting some free tokens? Please, do tell me why I or anyone else needs to give a single shit about their feelings or their proclaimed ‘loss’ of a thing that THEY did not create and that THEY never would have had in the first place if it weren't for the people that THEY drove away.”

“Quite frankly, they can all go to hell. Most of them knew what they were doing. I tried to warn them myself, repeatedly, that they were overplaying their hand and would end up getting burned by their own stupidity. Nobody listened. I do not feel bad for them. They got what they deserved...a piece of shit platform run by a piece of shit. So they can stay there. They can cry. They can call us genocidal. I don't give a flying fuck. That platform is dead and anyone who wants to stay on it is beyond stupid.”

“Good luck. Have fun. Steem and its remaining community is not my problem anymore.”


OK...so...was I too harsh on the other commenter or the people who voted for centralization? I don’t believe I was.

Some people are out there right now claiming that what was done was petty and vindictive. I could not disagree more.

The decision that was made is all about philosophical principles. It was made with the idea of decentralization, free association, and private property in mind. This decision was also made with the full understanding that Hive tokens were not anyone’s property and that none of the existing Steem tokens have been touched by anyone who helped develop and deploy the Hive blockchain.

Those people who decided to act against the interests of a large majority of Steem’s stakeholders need to accept the consequences of their actions and truly comprehend that they are owed nothing at all simply for having a Steem account and tokens in their Steem wallet.


Hive is not Steem.

The entire purpose of creating Hive was to avoid the need to “take” anything from anyone. The accounts not receiving the airdrop will even be able to use the Hive blockchain. No accounts are deleted. Nothing has been stolen.

And even despite everything that has happened, these accounts may still have a chance to receive the airdrop by submitting a proposal to the “Decentralized Hive Fund” (Hive’s version of the Steem Proposal System, or SPS). The community will ultimately decide whether or not they want to give free Hive tokens to those who may potentially use them to undermine the very decentralization that has been sought.

Is there a more fair way of dealing with hostile actors? Is this not the kind of free association that many of us in the crypto community hold dear?

Is this not a testament to decentralization and the value of community...to the very principles and the foundation of DPoS?

A new chain was created. New tokens have been airdropped. The community that supports Hive can move on. Those who preferred to support centralization can remain on the centralized chain. I’d say it’s a win-win, but even though the Hive blockchain has a more promising future than Steem ever had, this doesn’t feel like a win-win to me.

I’m not sure if I feel bad for the people who made horrible decisions (I’m pretty sure that I don’t) or if I feel disappointed that everything over the past four years had to come to a head like this. I do know that I don’t feel bad for the decisions that I’ve made over the past five weeks.


Let me tie a little bow on all of this and then we can be done with it all…

We may not share common values and common goals - and that’s okay. The beauty of such a digital community is that we’re not forced to join a blockchain, to interact with it or its users, or to pay for each other’s misdeeds.

We all have choices to make. Some people made choices that they felt were right. Others disagreed with those choices. So long as nobody has been forced to do anything against their will and so long as nobody has had any of their property stolen from them, then it’s a matter of subjective opinion regarding what other people ought to do.

Delegated proof-of-stake has been directly attacked over the past month. Some weaknesses have been exposed but it may not be anything that can’t be fixed. It’s our job now to make this system more robust.

We will take this new challenge to the Hive blockchain and work to resolve it...as stakeholders in the system, as witnesses using our property to support it, as freely-associated and involved individuals, and as a decentralized community.

This is what we fought for. Now it’s time to lay the foundation for a new and improved DPoS blockchain.

I’m ready. I’m actually a little excited. Let’s make Hive what Steem could have been a long time ago - and let’s not let each other down again.




I'm a Hive witness. You can vote for me, @ats-witness.

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It's not working properly for me, so until then, it's not a viable option.
For example, I don't have a wallet here on Hive.

Everyone on Hive has a wallet. Let the nodes and apps do their thing. They're slowly coming online, bugs are getting worked out, and everything is getting more stable as we go.

You and me both, glad to see such a 'Hive' of activity on the first day, exciting times.

Cheer$;)

The wallet has not been working via Hive.blog for me on Friday but did work via https://PeakD.com and I like PeakD for the many options but am currently back on Hive.blog as it tends to be simpler and more similar to the Steemit user interface (UI). I will probably go back and forth between front-ends as needed.

The Marky Mark has a post with step by step download/installation of the new Hive KeyChain, if you are familiar with using the steem KeyChain. Here is the link: https://peakd.com/hive/@themarkymark/how-to-install-hive-keychain
Also as mentioned below the peakd.com wallet and peaklock are working pretty good. I am still looking for the delegate/un-delegate functions but I am sure that will show up soon, somewhere.

Same my wallet isn't working.

Install Hive Keychain in your browser and use https://peakd.com/. It's all explained. It works!

Good luck :)

I find it funny that some people are pissed that they didn't get free tokens. They even go as far as claiming that they had a right to be included in the airdrop...give me a break!

anyone know why it says error when i click on my my wallet for hive

Maybe because you're still using a Steem logo as your avatar?

I joke. 😃

What I don't get is why does @ned have Hive...did someone forget about him?

I guess because he was smart enough not to vote for the SteemTron 'witnesses')

I hear you man, i felt the same way as you have. The funny thing is that those who were actively supporting the centralization of chain are now bitching around not being part of an airdrop - reffering to decentralization. Lol, so pathetic

Like why the fuck should we reward those who made hostile environment and literraly threw us out.

Don't give a fuckk about them.

Time to build man, thanks for staying true towards intrinsic values :)

any big name accounts not get this airdrop is there a place to see which accounts were excluded?

after all their attempts at destroying the blockchain, i'm having a blast watching those whiny bitches going
i want my airdrop
i want my airdrop
i want my airdrop
stupidned.gif

To be fair, I think they made a gamble, not even knowing it was a gamble, for "the big guys". It used to be the case that the big guys could have everything they wanted, and of course people want to have a piece of the pie. Not many people understand that we are with some things already beyond post-scarcity, whatever that would mean. We are in a world where we can literally have anything we want, we just have to get our act together and understand what we really want.

Can you smeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell what the Hive is cooking lol

steem gonna hit rock bottom 😏

And why the hell haven't you been a top 20 witness? 🤔 Seriously I want you in the decision making group. The entire above is why I have maintained my vote for you through everything. This is a turning point and hopefully one that will help be a spring board for the next and better version of Hive, through consensus. It is time for us to take this system to a new level and a new realm.

Yeah, this guy ats-david seems pretty smart. I mean, he can like write sentences for days and that pretty much equals smart in my book. I can barely manage a few paragraphs before I'm burned out for months on posting. But this guy ... this guy right here, he can just drop these Moby Dick novels out 3x a day if he wanted. This is why he will be getting my full 100 HP support!

Umm...100 HP is not nearly enough to be a supporter of mine.

Plz buy moar HIVE. Bittrex is now open for trading. Give them a bio-sample and stack those tokens, bro!

Thanks, bro! Always good to see you around and telling me how awesome I am!

I have some big ideas of how we can make this blockchain great. Wish me luck trying to convince everyone else. It won't be easy and it'll be a lot of work to pull off the vision. I'll write about it soon enough.

Which one am I?

Lol! I'd have to say you write more like the Rock sounds than Peewee. Not a lot of "AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH"s in your posts. But if you had a secret word of the day you might.

I just read about the person voting for an equal number of Justin's sock puppet witnesses to remain neutral. The problem is, that's not neutral, you're either for how DPOS should be run or against it. Sitting on the fence just gives you splinters.

Thabks for the in depth explanation:)

I think it's absolutely fair enough that people, through communication, limit the power of capital if that capital is used to harm people, or a system. Period.

And anyway, in this case, the 'bad tron actors' haven't actually had their capital, as such, limited, it's still on Steem!

So I'm not even sure if there's a case to answer about the selective air drop?

I'd say let's start by forgetting Steem ever existed - a group of people decided to set up a new chain and decided to be nice enough to airdrop some tokens to their supporters.....

Now the challenge is, well, everything that goes along with setting up a new chain!

I think it's absolutely fair enough that people, through communication, limit the power of capital if that capital is used to harm people, or a system. Period.

That's a core tenet of PoS systems I thought?!

I agree, but there are those who believe in allowing people with capital more freedom to do as they please with it, I'm generally of the view that we need more constraints.

It's been a long time since I was so excited to start being a part of the Steemit community, so long actually, last time I was seriously posting was back in mid 2017. But since then, the concerns of centralization, whales, bots and overall Steemit becoming a ghost town have crippled that desire.

This is a new start, a decentralized platform, with a vibrant and dedicated community which I certainly want to be a part of.

Right now waiting on Binance to enable the STEEM wallets to dump my tokens and power up the HIVE account, and keep my stake for the years to come, who knows, maybe it's going to be worth a few thousand someday

Exactly. I do like DPoS. I am happy to be on Hive. Sadly, some people prefer centralization similar to how some humans prefer larger government who can allegedly keep them safe. But I don't want pretend security from big brother but rather freedom to take care of myself on my private property.

this is awesome, and there are so many things that we can do in Hive as I can see on your footer.
voting for your witness, Keep Buzzing

Nice to meet you in HIVE.

Response

Question : was I too harsh on the other commenter or the people who voted for centralization?
My response,
Not at all, in fact that was very honest. You made a swear word, uh oh I know a cuck whale that will down vote you worst case.

We need more exchanges to list hive soon. I hope, its going to happen in next week or so ?

Exchanges are being worked on. As with any new blockchain and coin, it takes a little while to get it up and running, but it's being worked on.

I have seen a group of people talking about decentralized but they're the supporter of Justin Sun...

Sadly for them lol

Fully upvoted, reblogged, undersigned and agreed!

No, you were not to harsh. Some people don't understand it when you are being polite.

Yes, this is DPoS. It's not hypocrisy of politics, it's not democracy either. It's distributed governance.

I strongly agree with probably everything that you've written above. Astonishment included. Let's move on. I will be more that happy when the time comes when the majority of posts on #hive won't be about hive. Or Steem, Or totalitarianism that our society is quickly sinking in.

Thanks for everything that you and others who participated in this salvation effort have done in the last weeks.

Is !BEER bot working? You deserved this beer. A truckload of them :)

You are my witness now. After this divorce we can reevaluate our witness votes. They don't need to be for top twenty witnesses any longer.

Thank you, sir! Glad to see you still around after all these years. Your support is appreciated!

Maybe we'll get back to some sports stuff soon!

Thank you. It's hard in these days with restrictions and health related issues. And now there was a strong earthquake in Zagreb, Croatia. 100 kilometers from where I live.

Shattering times from many perspectives.

Take care and keep up the great work.

I really enjoy this clear words after all the drama.

Stay positive for real decentralization where WE - the community - decide.

I'm ready to move on. Bigger and better things to build now that we threw off the Steem/Steemit shackles.

The red writing is a bit "alarming"
Maybe a more "relaxed" red tone..?

They don't freaking get it. I heard someone use the term 'my airdrop'

'I didn't receive my airdrop'

And it freaking irks me every single time! They don't get it, will never get it, so it's best they stay on steem and whine.

I do not think you were too harsh at all. I am looking forward to everything that Hive can be. Thank you for all you have done and continue to do and sacrifice for the community!

I'm still a little confused as a standard day to day user (a normie if you will) who supported the fork, and voted for the top witnesses in their fight against J sun how to access my wallet and tokens on Hive? I must say after J Suns tantrums and clear displays of ineptitude that showed ill intent I'm glad/relieved this migration happened. Thanks to you and all the other hard working witnesses who pulled this off.

The actual hive site doesn't seem to work. Try using the steempeak equivalent https://peakd.com/@pandasquad/transfers (substituting in you name)

I agree with everything you said. I'll also give you my witness vote.

This piece is awesome. Thanks. You're now my new elected witness :)

Thank you for the great info. It's really great that people are taking the time to spell everything out for those of us who are really trying to understand everything that has transpired, and want to do the right thing but feel a little torn and confused. So many of us have put heart and soul into Steem for so long that it's just not easy to pivot. But more knowledge and understanding will help us all to make our best choices.

Good to see you here driving the new "hive" @ats-david - i still struggle a bit but getting there - hope to find more time to dive into all that,

I hadn't been keeping track of the way others had been voting on the issue, except for those that were very vocal or obvious about their support one way or the other, so when I looked at the list of people that had voted for centralization I was surprised to see some of the people that were on that list.

As I said in my own little post on the issue, an airdrop is a gift from a blockchain. It doesn't take away any other tokens someone might have, or their ability to use a particular platform. It's just a gift.

Hi, is the wallet accessible, or best to wait a couple of weeks. Having problems accessing my wallet from this interface and from peakd, having problems, claiming rewards.

Excellent post! Thanks for your quick action and hard work AND your defense of what what we have all built, big or small, over the last few years. ✌️

Can't seem to access my wallet. been trying since morning. This is the message I am getting . Can you please advise ?

Wallet.jpg

Justin and the sybil attackers got off easy. For PoS systems in general, the intent is to take drastic actions against a single stakeholder who attacks the network, instead the stakeholders that matter simply walked away.

The people left on steem now have the misguided belief that any money is good money, even if it's Justin Sun's. To any informed person in the cryptosphere, Justin Sun is a joke. They will soon learn a hard lesson. Steemit now filtering and downvoting is a good indication of that. I can't get out of that fast enough, the best I can hope for is a few pumps to sell into, but at this point I'll settle for transfers being operational in 13 weeks.

The decision that was made is all about philosophical principles.

I hope people will stand for the view. It was made very clear in the Hive initial post who was going to and who was not going to receive the air drop. People had time to re-evaluate their choices they had made. They stood by their principles, I hope the users of Hive block chain can stand behind the principles expressed in the initial launch post of Hive Block Chain.

It is so nice to see how strong our community is.

We have a bright future on hive and a huge advantage about steem because we have a free SPS / DAO. We can fund and support the community wants with enough cash in the Bank.

I would say this is true freedom of a community.

Hive on!

Code is the only law therefore the old network was never decentralized. I hope that changes with HIVE. The complaints about users not receiving airdrops are not all selfish whining, and in my opinion it weakens the HIVE community and the token to exclude users. Despite Justin baiting people to buy STEEM in hopes of overpowering him in the first few days, he and the exchanges were always in control of the wallets, and any voting power contributed to their witnesses by community members was only a symbolic representation of their opinion, as opposed to tangibly affecting governance.

how to undelegate hive power?

Yeah, i hive ... i ported over, wrote my first messsge here and not one friggin reply. It is not that i had a very dedicated community on steemit, but this feels like i have to start at zero

I get error messages when I try to add pictures to my blog posts on Hive. Anyone else getting this? How do I solve it?

오랜만에 들어왔는데
난 아직도 이해가 안간다.
뭐거뭔지 도무지 모르겠어

Of course by now we know that the script which created the blacklist had a bug and many innocent people where added to the blacklist.

Hive is off to a bad start here by punishing innocent people.

these accounts may still have a chance to receive the airdrop by submitting a proposal to the “Decentralized Hive Fund”

Considering that you punished innocent users I have no choice than vote in favour of any such proposal.

A shorter blacklist with few hand picked account would have been the better option. Leaving justice to a script was a mistake.

The accounts listed by script error will be corrected. This has already been discussed and there will be more info about it in the near future.

To be clear - I am not referring to any of those people in this post. It was an unfortunate occurrence due to time constraints but it's nothing that cannot be fixed.

Everything sounds good. I'm very excited for the new blockchain too but I noticed some issues like; wallet doesn't work or I marking new notifications as marked doesn't react. Can I just know when will it be repaired? 🙂

I’d like your opinion on this part of DPoS the missing whitepaper:

Like all consensus algorithms, the most harm the block producers can cause is censorship. All blocks must be valid according to the deterministic open source state machine logic.

In my view, your second point takes a very serious negative activity and describes it as a valid part of DPoS:

2.. Any person running such software can choose to validate or ignore transactions from any account(s).

If a blockchain advertised this action as a valid option for its validators, then why would anyone use that blockchain? Do you view censorship resistance as a fundamental value proposition of blockchain technology or not? If you do not, how do you reconcile the contradiction between points 2 and 3? If it’s valid for producers to exclude any transactions they want, what prevents them from excluding transactions which would vote up other producers to take their place?

I think your point number two is dangerous and correctly described as “harm” in the DPoS whitepaper. If censorship of any kind on a blockchain is condoned as a valid activity then it becomes a permissioned system which, IMO, blockchain technology was invented to avoid.

Isolating point 2 from the rest of the points could certainly lead to something problematic. But point 2 doesn’t live in isolation.

I didn't discuss it in isolation. I talked about it direction with point 3 and why that creates a very serious problem.

To me, blockchain exists to solve censorship resistance as part of how it solves the Byzantine General's Problem where you can't (normally) trust the messages or trust that the messages haven't been censored. That's what PoW, PoS, DPoS, etc are all about. They give you a mathematical, game theory explanation of how, under specific circumstances, you can guarantee, 100%, the outcome.

Point 2 destroys this concept, IMO. It's toxic to the very reason blockchain exists and is correctly described by the inventor of DPoS as "harm."

  1. Any person can run any software they want on their computer.
  2. Any person running such software can choose to validate or ignore transactions from any account(s).
  3. Any user of the software can approve or unapprove any validator at any time by using their own stake.
  4. When a majority (soft forks) or a super-majority (hard forks) of validators is running the same software, then that software is what is “accepted” as the current chain by validators and stakeholders.
  5. At any time, any other group of validators can run a different version of the software and those validators can then “fork” the chain and run their own version of it, separate from the original chain.
  6. Each user participating in 1-5 is using their own property in the way they see fit. None of the steps in 1-5 contradict or counteract DPoS.

None of this is untrue. Some things may not be desirable but that does not invalidate the facts above.

To your point - yes, it could be bad for a blockchain if a group of validators ignored transactions. But I don’t think the “bad” can be universally applied. And ignoring/rejecting transactions is certainly not an action that is unique to DPoS. This can occur on any chain.

They give you a mathematical, game theory explanation of how, under specific circumstances, you can guarantee, 100%, the outcome.

There is no 100% guarantee of any outcome, which is why networks can be “attacked” and have mitigation protocols or system designs that help avoid such attacks. With DPoS, that mitigation exists through the election of trusted witnesses by stakeholders. This is why I stated that you can’t just cherry-pick one or two points from above and state that the system or its security would be invalidated.

If you need examples of how attacks and mitigation can play out - or how accounts can be protected - just observe what has happened with Steem and Hive.

There was a threat of centralization, the threat was temporarily neutralized (soft fork 22.2), an “attack” occurred (exchange collusion), and then a fork (HF23 - Hive) was deployed to get rid of the attack and to protect the tokens of those not involved in or supporting the attack.

What better example do you need? This confirms that all of the enumerated points in my post are indeed correct.

The question of “harm” when it comes to block production would appear to be based on harming the system. If the “censorship” involved is in fact an attempt to mitigate an attack meant to centralize block production, which is actually more harmful to the chain? The few “censored” transactions or the centralization of the entire transaction validation process?

If the “censorship” involved is in fact an attempt to mitigate an attack meant to centralize block production, which is actually more harmful to the chain? The few “censored” transactions or the centralization of the entire transaction validation process?

I appreciate this perspective as a lesser of two evils. I still think listing it among your criteria for what DPoS allows is inappropriate. There are many, many other forms of harm we could come up with that network participants could use. We didn't list those, so why list this? Is it to justify actions taken as if they are normal, every day occurrences that any witness "can" do?

A witness can shoot themselves in the head, shut down their server before disabling their witness account, run multiple nodes as a sybil attack, etc, etc... there are many things which we can call "facts" and say witnesses "can" do them. Of the items in your list, I only see #2 out of place because it is a form of harm against the network.

I think it would be more accurate list the protection mechanisms in a war-time scenario that DPoS can use to defend itself and what level of harm each of those create.

Either way, thank you for the respectful dialogue.