The Law-Abiding Citizen Starter Kit

in Deep Diveslast month

It's funny how rapidly social perspectives shift, isn't it?

Alice Miller was a Swiss psychologist and psychoanalyst who wrote extensively about childhood trauma. At the time she was first writing in (70s/80s), her work seems to have caused quite a stir. Talking about how corporal punishment can damage and inhibit a child's development was, apparently, something of a taboo as recently as the 80s.
I've been reading her for about a year, and reading now in the 2020s, it's quite shocking that something so obvious could be so provocative. Nowadays, corporal punishment is a very precarious topic with parents getting into legal trouble even over perceived physical abuse.

For new generations of parents, it seems understood that they're not gonna beat up their kids. By contrast, I don't know anyone in my generation (so kids who grew up 10-15 years ago) who wasn't smacked about a bit. Socially, it seemed understood that that was the way to discipline kids. It was just what was done. And obviously, I'm not talking about thrashing kids within an inch of their lives or anything savage like that. But ask anyone who grew up (in Eastern Europe at least) in the early 2000s, and they'll tell you sure they got slapped. I've even heard people my age talking about younger kids and ascribing to that bizarre mentality that it was better how we were raised. Kids today are spoiled, have no manners. They could do with a smack or two.

Obviously, that's crazy, but it's fascinating to see how mentality shifted so quickly, at least here. It's an interesting discrepancy that you'll frequently see when observing mother-child pairs on the street versus grandparent-grandchild pairs. Though traditionally more lenient and indulgent, it's very easy to note that the grandparents have this hardness about them often. It wouldn't be so far-fetched that they should smack the kid if he doesn't sit down, certainly more likely to happen than if the parent was with them.

Which is good, naturally, although a lot of younger parents do seem to be struggling with discipline and how you do educate your kids well without hitting them. It's like we dismantled the old narrative, but didn't replace it with anything, so that we're now kind of in a gray area.

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One aspect that grated from the Miller book I'm currently reading ("For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence"). While criticizing the use of violence in education, Miller does suggest imposing a very rigid structure in early childhood and not tolerating moods or attitude from your kid. Nap time is nap time. Now you eat. Now you go out, and we don't sideline that. That sort of thing.

And her argument, at least as I understood it, was that obviously you need to teach the kid to respect authority and order, because how else are they gonna become law-abiding, model citizens?

Which was a bit terrifying to me. See, it's based on this assumption that the "order" out there is a fair, just one that we should want to conform to. Obviously, we need laws and to respect the natural order and common courtesy that allows us to survive together, but I think there's something perilous in teaching your kids that the order that be is good as is and should not be questioned.

That's the sort of mentality that gets countless people killed in needless wars.
It's the faulty logic that allowed the injustices of the pandemic to occur.
It's how hundreds of people are legally stripped of their rights each year.

For the mere crime of assuming that the "system" is looking out for them, and should be respected. Of course they wouldn't do anything to hurt you.

Miller suggests that while violence is not the answer, you shouldn't teach kids that they can get away with anything. Or that it's okay to do as they please. No. You need to teach them that you are the authority, and that they must always respect the authority's decisions.

Except...

It's confusing to me because we expect to thrive off the above mentality for about 18 years or so, and then we expect the kid who's no longer a kid to venture forth into the world and be this independent, self-assured, self-reliant non-conformist. We all want to have kids who think for themselves and know how to protect themselves both from abuse and the various more subtle forms of injustice. Yet how can they do that when for the most important, formative years of their life, we've taught them they should conform, and that they should respect our laws and decisions?

Doesn't it seem like something got lost on the way there?

Parenting seems extremely complex to me, and I feel we're not devoting as much thought to it as we should. It seems that the generalized view of a "good parent" in 2024 is someone who doesn't beat their kids, who doesn't yell, treats their kids with respect and so on (all very noble), but... what does the good parent do, exactly?
We seem to agree on the "how not to" part, yet are still quite shaky on the good practices. I don't think it's enough simply not hitting your kids or yelling at them. Okay, that's gonna mean they won't enter adulthood with all sorts of dissociative issues and trauma from your physical or verbal abuse. But that's just the bare minimum, as it were. It's far from giving them a head-start or a foot up or whatever. Seems to me that the good parent shouldn't only avoid the bad practices, but also figure out how to raise independent, free-thinking, self-reliant, healthy children.

But how do we do that?

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My parents were a profligate pair who did very little parenting either good or bad, yet I turned out to be the most independent, free-thinking, self-reliant, healthy person I know;)
I don't recall ever being hit. My mother did try a few times when particularly inebriated, but I was nimble and she was slow. Though I don't have children, I did more or less raise my brother and never had occasion to raise a hand to him. He was a well-behaved child though. I have no idea what I'd do if faced with a kid screaming blue murder.

I have no idea what I'd do if faced with a kid screaming blue murder.

None of us do, really.. . That's a great point, actually. To raise independent children requires attributing them a lot of independence from the get-go, which isn't in a lot of parenting manuals. Ever a conundrum, this mothering business.

Wazaaaaaaaaaap!!!??? I’m thrilled to hop on here for the first time in months and see you still at it!

I was raised with minimal smacks, and probably could’ve benefitted from a few more if I’m being honest…but then again, I mostly love how I turned out so I’m not sure I even agree with myself…I’m just shootin’ from the hip here :)

I’ve seen the new paradigm in my own kids (now ages 4 & 7)…sometimes the threat/use of force is really tempting! And the sheer lack of results achieved through honest and respectful discourse certainly serves to reinforce that temptation, but it that thought which overcomes temptation is very nearly related to your closing point - I don’t want to raise my kids to respect authority! I want to raise them to respect reason and compassion, again, shooting from the hip. So when they disrespect me for giving them rules they don’t understand, I try really hard to help them understand instead of forcing capitulation. It’s not perfect, but they’re ok so far I guess 🤣

Heey! Great to see you around. Hope you're doing well!

And the sheer lack of results achieved through honest and respectful discourse certainly serves to reinforce that temptation,

I hear ya. This book had me reflecting on my own misadventures babysitting. I was all for peaceful rulership until I ran into a spoiled kid who would not listen to any attempt at reason. xD It's all fun and games until they won't put on the damned shoes, innit?

I want to raise them to respect reason and compassion, again, shooting from the hip. So when they disrespect me for giving them rules they don’t understand, I try really hard to help them understand instead of forcing capitulation.

Amen to that. Maybe that will change like 100 years from now, but for now, methinks that's the best we can aim towards.

Understanding is good...

Although I grew up as a stubborn child who just didn't want to understand 😂

At least at that age..


I believe the kids you've been blessed with also helps in choosing your decision methods too😂

Pray not for a seki in your life...

You'll cry from ages 5-9🤣🤣🤣

Miller does suggest imposing a very rigid structure in early childhood and not tolerating moods or attitude from your kid. Nap time is nap time. Now you eat. Now you go out, and we don't sideline that.

The assumption here is that this type of organizing behavior is good for everyone, every single one of us, and if it doesn't work for us, we have failed miserably. I cannot live like that.

Now I'll go back and read the rest of your post, which, I suspect, you touch on. We'll see!


You need to teach them that you are the authority, and that they must always respect the authority's decisions.

We also expect our children to extend this blind submission to authority out in the world, to uncles, teachers, doctors and police. It doesn't take a PhD to see the dangers in inherent in demanding this of our children, and I can tell you for 100% certain, a great number of the teachers any schooled child encounters are abusive assholes, teaching because they are sadistic. Oversimplification, but my experience. My son would brook no BS, and could not obey those teachers without expressing his opinion. It was awful, and I wish like hell I had removed him from school when this started happening.


what does the good parent do, exactly?

"Good parent" depends on whom you ask. If you ask the school, you are only a good parent if your child goes and does wherever or whatever he or she is directed to go or do. By any employee of the school. It's prison.

Good parents tell the system to fuck off. Good parents homeschool, which also removes the child from the clutches of the medical industry. I did neither of these. I know the consequences!

I cannot live like that.

Me neither! It worried me, thinking that when I do have children, I might pass for a "bad mom" if I can't make them stick to such rigidity, which I know I probably won't.

It was awful, and I wish like hell I had removed him from school when this started happening.

I hear you. It can be very alienating being the kid with some shred of autonomy and integrity in a world designed to conform. Same goes for being that parent, unfortunately, so don't be too hard on yourself.

Good parents tell the system to fuck off.

100%. To that entire paragraph, actually.

I almost gave up on this Miller book. Glad I didn't, it goes on to analyze the consequences of rigid parenting, physical abuse sure, but also this idea of conformity, of stifling the child's joy and autonomy against the rise of Nazi Germany. A really interesting read, albeit unsettling. Some of our parenting attitudes may have shifted since then, but not significantly. Sure, the number of parents smacking their kids around seems to have gone down, but the ones still fighting for dominance and conformity certainly seems to be going strong. Which, I reckon, was the true danger in that grim little history lesson.

I did neither of these.

I guess this got stuck in my head. I just wanted to say, don't be too hard on yourself. It's your first go around at this life, just like everyone else. And of what I've known of you here, you seem like a good person. With your heart in the right place. People like that don't deserve to be judged in retrospect. It's cruel. Sure, maybe you know now, but you didn't then... no one should be punished for what they learned in the future. Anyway, sorry if I'm overstepping or whatever, just felt like it needed saying.

It's heartwarming to hear you say so. I credit my travails and my failures with leading me to who I am now, which is quite likeable if I do say so myself. Not everyone likes me though. For a while there I was considered to be a very selfish, enemy of the people, domestic terrorist because of a certain lifestyle (medical) choice I had made, and was quite vocal about. I had to move outta town to feel safe! I hope those who hated me so look back on that time with their hearts, and not with their brainwashed minds.

I'm sure the wiser ones do. Hopefully more of them now, post-pandemic.

Only one person has apologized to me for having been so beastly, but if each of us helped one person to see, we've doubled our numbers.

To be honest, I've always been wanting to read someone talk about the lenient child rearing of America so I could comment 😂😂

In Nigeria, for training kids, in the toddler years, violence is regular and is a must.
It's common for the mother to flog, slap and bear this child, according to her judgement of the gravity of his/her blunder.

The use of beating as a method of duscupline in the younger and mid-teen years, ensure the child fully understands obedience and respect to the higher authority.
Then from the mid-teen years, the disciplinary methods take a shift from pure violence to suggestive threats and just sheer disapproval of a wrong decision.
This way, the child gets to test his freedom of making decisions under the tutelage of who he/she respects.

When 18, the child is already independent, ready to live by himself, with little or sometimes no help from his parents.
He already knows the values he's been trained under, his rights, what he can and can't get away with and such.



Not saying that this teaching method doesn't have its own downsides as if there's a bit much violence at the early stages, the child could still grow stunted, shy and may attribute violence as the natural way to handle things.

All in all, parenting itself is a tightrope where you try to balance the scales between moral upbringing and societal upbringing 😂😂
A disheartening job, but if fulfilled well, it's quite satisfactory 😂.

Hint: You can save yourself from such mind wrecking decision making by not having kids all in all though..

The kids who aren’t being smacked these days are getting spoilt everyday and I know this because I’m a teacher. I work with so many kids especially the ones from rich homes so I can tell how they do.
I feel smacking a child sticks in the child’s brain and makes him or her remember not to make the same mistake anymore. Kids may be stubborn so correcting them merely with your mouth may not work all the time

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