Disclaimer: The main aim of this post is to raise some awareness and make a point. I'm not trying to point fingers, complain, or stir drama. None of this is black or white, and I'm totally neglecting actual content and the work put in, or how many new people it brings to Hive. I also think that curation groups are great for Hive and it's a good thing that people are able to earn something here to a certain extent.
Why Hive Isn't Pumping...
In the end when it comes down to price action, i's always the same thing. If more people press the Buy button, the price tend to go up and if more people press the sell button the price tends to go down or stay low. For people to buy a coin, there must be either a belief that the price will go up in the future or a use case that is big enough to justify the purchase.
In theory, the use case in Hive is to get more influence in the network as your upvotes, which represent part of the inflation, grow bigger and you earn more curation rewards. However, is this for most people really woth the risk? Especially knowing that you don't really require HP to earn and most of the 50% your upvote that goes to the content creators likely just gets dumped on the market.
Chart used from @dalz
Basically, the price of Hive stays suppressed because many people are trying to create content on Hive with an eye to earn and just cash out everything they are getting from it without much consequence to it or a requirement to invest. This puts in sell pressure while there isn't really that much reason why people would actually invest in Hive, knowing they only really get part of the inflation.
KE Ratio
This metric compares the Rewards Someone earned on hive compared to the Hive Power they own and can generally be seen as the best indication if someone is a net positive or a net negative for the Ecosystem (Off course, there are exceptions to this rule as Staked HP isn't the only metric). I also think Delegated Hive Power should count toward this metric by the way
If you want to check your own KE Ratio, you can do so on beebalanced.streamlit.app
Curation Groups & KE Ratios
The idea behind curations groups is that those who are invested in Hive Power and want to earn curation rewards without manually curating can do so by trusting their Hive Power in the hands of curation groups. Most of the time, a part of the curation rewards go to the curation group, while the ones delegating get the most. It is supposed to be a win-win deal as it should help the network forward, seeing the post rewards going to users and content that are good for the network.
However, I have noticed for a long time by randomly clicking posts that get curated, checking the wallet activity, seeing the majority are just cashing out all the time without real intentions to be invested financially in the platform. The same counts for many of the curators who feel like they have a list of accounts they curate just over and over again as a quick way to make some money.
Curangel KE Ratio Data
So I manually went to all the curated posts on yesterday's Curangel Suration Compilation (Link) to give a better view on things. I could have also done this with compilations from other curation projects and I don't aim to target Curangel in any way
Curated Accounts <3 KE Ratio = 54
Curated Accounts 3-10 KE Ratio = 25
Curated Accounts >10 KE Ratio = 22
Around half of the votes on that particular report went to accounts with a rather poor KE Ratio and 20%+ even went to extreme value extractors with a 10+ KE Ratio.
The Curators
| Account | KE Ratio | Median KE Curation |
|---|---|---|
| @phage93 | 0.47 | 3.90 |
| @ewkaw | 0.62 | 2.55 |
| @minismallholding | 0.66 | 3.45 |
| @galenkp | 0.67 | 1.24 |
| @nikv | 2.97 | 1.94 |
| @equipodelta | 5.94 | 2.17 |
| @brumest | 9.54 | 1.91 |
| @jotakrevs | 11.05 | 5.57 |
| @the01crow | 14.88 | 1.98 |
| @anggreklestari | 16.97 | 6.29 |
| @crazy-andy | 20.89 | 4.41 |
| @edwardstobia | 32.28 | 2.25 |
| @fmbs25 | 61.37 | 2.36 |
The Curation
From @anggreklestari (Average KE 7.93 / Median KE 6.29)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @ruffatotmeee | 1.80 |
| @mnssatrio | 1.99 |
| @jenny27 | 2.00 |
| @yale95reyra | 3.80 |
| @tht | 8.78 |
| @hive.samadi | 11.53 |
| @princess-dara | 15.18 |
| @azwar.ipank | 18.37 |
From @brumest (Average KE 10.75 / Median KE 1.97)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @lindoro | 1.10 |
| @ataraksja | 1.67 |
| @yeni82 | 1.83 |
| @theworldaroundme | 1.86 |
| @iscrak | 1.90 |
| @rg2-foto | 1.97 |
| @furkanmamplam | 2.23 |
| @asklanbudi | 5.44 |
| @akukamaruzzaman | 17.78 |
| @dimascastillo90 | 21.33 |
| @my451r | 61.17 |
From @crazy-andy (Average KE 5.09 / Median KE 4.41)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @new.things | 0.68 |
| @fermentedphil | 0.90 |
| @triplug | 1.83 |
| @alelin | 1.99 |
| @sofathana | 3.65 |
| @arieswilly | 5.18 |
| @equipodelta | 5.94 |
| @holoz0r | 6.13 |
| @parvkhuller | 8.07 |
| @cristiancaicedo | 16.53 |
From @edwardstobia (Average KE 4.62 / Median KE 2.25)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @belug | 1.66 |
| @eldiariodelys | 1.88 |
| @incublus | 1.94 |
| @carmen1659 | 1.95 |
| @ablaze | 2.25 |
| @cesaramos | 5.51 |
| @jlinaresp | 5.61 |
| @valeriavalentina | 8.03 |
| @jlphotographyart | 12.79 |
From @equipodelta (Average KE 5.59 / Median KE 2.17)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @eduardo900613 | 1.18 |
| @sacra97 | 1.30 |
| @giezihrz | 1.32 |
| @mariiale1979 | 1.78 |
| @mairimmorales | 1.90 |
| @pabloartisan | 2.00 |
| @irvinc | 2.17 |
| @efootjoker-yt | 2.31 |
| @cajiro | 5.17 |
| @josehany | 7.39 |
| @hrichakar | 10.63 |
| @jorgelissanchez | 13.20 |
| @yonnathang | 22.33 |
From @ewkaw (Average KE 11.25 / Median KE 2.55)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @lesiopm | 0.49 |
| @generikat | 0.78 |
| @barnabo73 | 0.91 |
| @willowink | 1.54 |
| @muhammadhalim | 2.34 |
| @calendulacraft | 2.76 |
| @abelfotografia | 3.58 |
| @isdarmady | 5.03 |
| @anzirpasai | 17.95 |
| @evildeathcore | 78.92 |
From @fmbs25 (Average KE 3.26 / Median KE 2.36)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @sirjoshua | 1.81 |
| @sundayayuba | 2.24 |
| @mayorkeys | 2.25 |
| @picazzy005 | 2.48 |
| @alexdepool27 | 3.11 |
| @ernesto6402 | 7.86 |
From @galenkp (Average KE 1.24 / Median KE 1.24)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @roswelborges | 1.24 |
From @jotakrevs (Average KE 11.80 / Median KE 5.57)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @jayna | 0.64 |
| @ibarra95 | 1.01 |
| @mipiano | 1.58 |
| @silher | 2.45 |
| @claudimar | 3.62 |
| @sunscape | 5.53 |
| @jlinaresp | 5.61 |
| @silviabeneforti | 7.57 |
| @lorentm | 19.23 |
| @masummim50 | 19.32 |
| @estefania3 | 37.02 |
| @yanes94 | 38.12 |
From @minismallholdings (Average KE 10.93 / Median KE 3.45)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @aurora.jabon | 0.00 |
| @quijotezco | 1.13 |
| @taliakerch | 2.12 |
| @storygoddess | 3.45 |
| @esperanzalandia | 5.78 |
| @piensocrates | 29.81 |
| @mariperez316 | 34.25 |
From @nikv (Average KE 7.20 / Median KE 1.94)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @qwerrie | 0.80 |
| @borjan | 0.85 |
| @gertu | 1.03 |
| @sweettais | 1.72 |
| @angelica79 | 1.94 |
| @ajchampz | 1.94 |
| @mrarturobravo | 1.97 |
| @bertrayo | 2.21 |
| @romanie | 9.73 |
| @wilfredocav | 15.47 |
| @alexa.art | 41.6 |
From @phage93 (Average KE 5.41 / Median KE 3.90)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @leeendah | 1.95 |
| @noemilunastorta | 3.90 |
| @chanych85 | 10.38 |
From @the01crow (Average KE 3.67 / Median KE 1.98)
| Account | KE Ratio |
|---|---|
| @generp | 1.90 |
| @ronimarie82 | 1.98 |
| @natica83 | 7.15 |
The Point I'm Trying to Make
Right now, there is way too much Free Lunch on Hive. If you check accounts and wallets from people who get upvoted by curation groups, I would say very few of them actually went to the point of investing in Hive, while many are just cashing out all of their earnings. This is not a sustainable model, and it shows in the price chart of Hive. While I believe everyone does with their stake pretty much what they want, I also believe that it should be way harder for those who have been here for years not holding a fair share of their earnings as Hive Power to give back to earn anything.
In fact, KE (including Leased HP) should be a requirement and a standard as part of proper curation. It should also replace the current broken reputation system. This would give users an incentive to buy or hold Hive and it would highly reduce the amount that is just dumped on the market.
Curation Groups should have a maximum KE Ratio number that everyone who wants to curate or get curated needs to be under. The good thing about this is that it doesn't affect new users, and it also doesn't require anyone to actually invest. It mainly cuts out those who have been extracting value from the ecosystem for a long time.
Conclusion
I would say to do the test yourself, check a random curated post from one of the curation groups here on Hive, and see for yourself if the account is an actual net positive or net negative for the Hive Ecosystem. You will be shocked to see what's going on in many cases, and it would be nice to see this improve so the ecosystem can benefit.
@friendlymoose got quite the conversation going on this topic earlier this year and I believe is working on something that they're hoping will be helpful to curators in selecting who best to curate.
Anyway, the conversations from that post got me talking with a few people from different parts of the world which gave me some insight into what a complex issue this is, particularly along ethical lines. It's ironic that the people who would benefit the most from Hive increasing in value are the very ones who end up having to withdraw from the ecosystem regularly. Many certainly try as much as possible to keep Hive staked when they can to contribute back to others on Hive where they can, but they are in tight situations where they might suddenly need to power down. If there was something positive they could do to increase Hive's value they would certainly jump on it.
What's really needed here are solutions that anyone can apply to increase Hive's value. At the moment the only solution generally given is that people need to buy Hive and the amount of people who can afford to take that risk are a small fraction of the people on here and they are mostly the ones in developed countries. I looked at the idea of converting Hive to HBD and the method that takes 3 days burns the Hive to create HBD. It seems like a good way to reduce the availability of Hive, but it increases the availability of HBD instead (which would need to be balanced out to maintain the peg) and it works both ways anyway. Perhaps something desirable could be created that requires Hive to purchase it and the Hive used is then burned; rather like Splinterlands does for DEC. I don't have the imagination to think what, unfortunately.
The problem I see with using something like KE to decide who the curation projects will vote or not vote is that I don't really think it will make that much impact if there is still not much reason to buy Hive. It will just change how they curate a bit and cause the usual bickering about the ethics of it, but then it will be business as usual when it comes to the Hive price. We'll continue creating Hive in the pool each day and distributing it, just to slightly different people, perhaps.
If it's any consolation the curation projects don't actually give huge votes out in comparison to some whales. Ocd has metrics in place to decide who they curate, so for example someone just dropping a post and not interacting will not be a candidate. I try to carry these principles over to what I curate at curangel as well. The team at ocd are fantastic at working together to weed out abuse and farming as well.
I think Holoz0r makes a good point about the social aspect of hive being important. If it was just about monetary value then we may as well just be a stand alone alt coin. While I'm in a developed country I don't have the spare fiat to invest in Hive, but I also don't have the incentive to take from Hive, because it has too little value to help me out much. So I decided early on that my focus would be the social side and building HP to be able to actually have some form of vote impact where it could help out. I now also play around with my liquid Hive either literally on Splinterlands or by dabbling on Hive Engine.
We have a world of people on here so there are always going to be a wide range of reasons to be here and a wide range of circumstances behind them. We can't expect everyone to come to the same stances as us and I certainly wouldn't want to try and force that when the concept behind this was always decentralisation. As others have already said, KE doesn't really say much about a user it just gives a snapshot of their current give/take status. It's an interesting tool that could be useful as part of an overview, however.
Thanks for the reply!
Splinterlands actually made KE under 3 a requirement for their curation through the efforts of @azircon. Perhaps other curation groups should do the same. Some exceptions are obviously warranted, but in general a review of author KE ratio and encouragement to not extract everything would be beneficial to Hive.
They never did that. Check out https://peakd.com/@steemmonsters/trail and you'll see up to 25 KE.
Good point, it should also be much easier to instantly check the KE, replacing the worthless reputation score with it would be a good start and easy to change. Also again, delegation/leases should count toward KE as a possible way to fix is for those opted in the past to get out.
Also, my entire wallet. Look how high my KE is, because it doesn't count my HBD in savings and the liquid Hive that is waiting for a PUMP to grow. Anyone who only sees the KE of this account and doesn't know my main account would say that I'm an extractor.
Well, KE Ratio only really relates to those who make posts, and especially those who make a ton of posts, which wouldn't be there if it weren't for the earnings. If you only make a couple each year or mainly read and make comments, KE Ration is simply not important.
If you would make regular posts and received significant upvotes from curation groups on each of them, I'm sure you could agree that this wouldn't be entirely right.
The main idea on Hive for content creators is that it goes both ways, and content itself doesn't really count as a 'contribution'. Users should both get and give some and in order to give you need some Hive Power, in order for it to be a fair amount it needs to be seen in relation to what you received so far.
Curation programs which return cash to the delegators will have high KE ratio by design. For a curation account there is nothing wrong with it. It is an issue though for individuals.
I tried to say that it might be beneficial to Hive long term if other curation groups were encouraging their curated authors to stake some Hive and not take everything out, just like Splinterlands now encourages their authors to maintain a KE ratio below 3.
Exactly, Splinterlands set a great standard of what is needed to actially get one of their upvotes.
However, that the curation programs curate content from such leachers with KE>30 is not ideal. I saw that you delegate a lot to curangel. Were you aware what they support?
Anyway, it seems that only a few such posts are upvoted, so in the grand scheme that might be acceptable.
🌄Good morning (here), @costanza! ☕
While I seldom write anything these days, it may interest you to know I do still glance through my feed, from time to time. And I do open and read posts. You have always been a good content creator and someone whose opinion I value. Along with others who faithfully continue to labor away at creating content "in here," I was interested to know what you had to say about the current ... "state of affairs" ... when it comes to the Hive blockchain and the associated market price for HIVE.
Having expressed my own view sometime ago, by "voting" with my feet, I have distilled my view of the potential future of HIVE's price down to comparing it to BTC and seeing where HIVE is in the ranking of TVL in comparison with others:
Source: CMC on Hive webpage
Dropping down further, from its ranking at #293, shown in a comment I made earlier in the year (on what I consider to be one of ... if not the most ... value destroying aspects of the Hive blockchain), it will come as no surprise to me to see this trend continue.
For the sake of all of those for whom I have considerable respect and admiration, still faithfully laboring away, I will be happy to be proven wrong.
P.S. Latest POL content now created ... 😉
Nice to see you back here @roleerob. Basically, there need to be valid reasons to buy Hive and for most users these simply haven't been there really. I still enjoy the platform regardless of the earnings but it would be nice to see some things change for the better.
Yes, @costanza, this is (at least to me) self-evident:
It explains what keeps others going, in spite of the price of HIVE. As I commented on, in my own last post, this aspect of engaging on the Hive blockchain carried me personally far beyond the time when I should have gotten out, simply from an investment point-of-view.
All the best to you, my friend, for whatever tomorrow may bring.
I didn't understand if it was good or not.
It's neither bad nor good. It's great.👏
!WEED !HUG Thank you, I try to put HP every day. Current objective: 11K (then take 100 HIVE for me) then put back 500 HP (then 100 HIVE for me) and so on.
Sounds like a good strategy. Let's go!
🤖 !DIY !HOPE !INDEED !STRIDE !WEIRD
Well after thinking about it for hours, someone told me to be careful with what you are going to say and inside don't end up killing your account remember that for them you are a zero on the left like many, the votes seem to always go to the same people, this is not to offend you but in my opinion the KE indicator is useless I have seen people with a very high one and they receive large votes but woe to those who have a low incador number and also make quality content and still are not taken into account by any curator, anyway this is ocean definitely very confusing 😕
👌😮💨
Well, the good thing is that if you are going to piss off anyone, if will be ones with little to no Hive Power so they can't downvote you. That said, the sad reality about hive is that there are basically 2 ways to do reasonably well. Eiher you get withing the 'curation autovote circle'. Many of the curators I would say also mostly just care about the rewards they are able to get with it and have a list of users they curate over and over again of which they know the content at least looks good. This or you are in an 'upvote 4 upvote' autovote circle which has the main difference that you actually need a ton of Hive Power for that. The main problem there is that it often leads to rather low effort posts just to capitalize on the upvotes.
If you fall out of these 2, Hive is a massive struggle and you are lucky if a payout on a high quality post gets to 1$.
Having KE requirements for curation projects should in theory make it a lot easier as it's a factor that everyone has in their own hands.
Ok, I understand, thanks for the information. I didn't know that. That's very kind of you.
Great analysis. For a professional curator (professional in that way, that there are many users following it in a curation trail) to upvote posts of users with a KE of >20 should be a no-go or a rare exception.
Seems like in this case it is a rule rather. Not good.
For me as investor a reason to not follow @curangel, let alone delegate to it.
I am wondering if the curation generally would look more careful at such leachers (at least I do), if they would dump less Hive on the market to increase their KE? It would be an experiment worth doing!
I'm quite sure that people would change their behavior if there would be a clear guideline of where the line is drawn in order to have a chance to get a vote from one of the curation groups. Leasing should count toward it alway though. I don't mind someone quitting, cashing out fully and coming back later only to lease the needed Hive Power to qualify and grow their stake back.
I got 0.84 on Heruvim1978 and 0.13 on Mightyrocklee
So, the lower it is the better, right?
Yes, means you provided more than ypu extracted :)
I love to read posts like this, one that tackles real Hive issues. It’s always nice to read valuable comments and pick a thing or two from them.
All thanks to this post I went to check my KE again and it’s pretty good.
It’s your Hive anniversary @costanza congratulations!!🥳🥳
Thanks @ibbtammy !!
More people should approach Hive like you do.
You are most welcome and I’d take that as a compliment, so thank you😃
It’s a fairly good data gathering. It is missing some plots, if I get a few minutes I can help with that :)
You should read this post, because it is what many of us are thinking about the subject you address here. Too bad most of those who can make a difference don't get it.
https://hive.blog/hive/@piensocrates/un-poco-de-catarsis-personal-para-descargar-mi-frustracion-18-08-2025
The reality though, is that the money has to come from somewhere, and I would argue that all the content fundamentally is worth near zero. So the only way that Hive can work long-term is when people also contribute to holding the Hive Price up by holding at least a fair share of what they earned to give back. If everyone just comes in expecting to put some content which earns them Hive from curation projects that they are free to cash out without any consequence, Hive would be near zero value.
I have invested my time, effort, and money into this chain and projects on this chain over the last seven years, but I see no value in putting any further effort into posting when people can come around and wipe you out for "reasons."
If someone chooses not to vote a post, for whatever reason, all good, it's their stake. People going around downvoting because someone has a number bigger than the random number they picked in their head is just a different form of abuse.
The focus on KE you've illustrated here is just a further symptom of obsession with rewards and the rewards pool.
If people want to use their earnings for something other than parking it as I have foolishly done, let them. If there's any real value to be had here, they'd want to stay.
A balance between contribution and healing. I certainly understand the difficulties and needs of those who take out more than they put in or contribute; sometimes they have emergencies they need to address. I understood that if I don't contribute, we all don't grow.
Un equilibrio entre aporte y curación. Sin duda alguna entiendo las dificultades y necesidades de los que sacan más de lo que meten o aportan, a veces tienen emergencias que necesitan solventar. Yo entendi que si no aporto no crecemos todos.
Congratulations @costanza! You received a personal badge!
You can view your badges on your board and compare yourself to others in the Ranking
Hello costanza!
It's nice to let you know that your article won 🥉 place.
Your post is among the best articles voted 7 days ago by the @hive-lu | King Lucoin Curator by heruvim1978
You and your curator receive 0.0024 Lu (Lucoin) investment token and a 2.40% share of the reward from Daily Report 735. Additionally, you can also receive a unique LUBROWN token for taking 3rd place. All you need to do is reblog this report of the day with your winnings.
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