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RE: Vitalik mentions hive again - takeaways

in #hive3 years ago

Just off the top of my head:
You must have skin in the game governance. 1p1v, even with magic that makes it, so you don't KYC is a no go. This will either turn into mob rule, or people with zero skin in the game can sell their votes for pennies profitably. Stake-based is the only solution as a foundation if we're talking security of base layer gov as it puts greed above all else and requires a money attack to take over in which we can always fork as a last resort.

Time locks are the backbone of making any voting system work; without lockups, exchanges will run your chain to earn BP rewards. It also makes attacks very easy and swift to leave and not face damages. You don't have vote-selling on Hive for a reason; it isn't because we are just a bunch of great people, it's because we are locked in, and great witnesses don't accept bribes. The only witnesses that accept bribes are the ones not good enough to be elected by merit. Since I'm locked in, last thing I want is to sell my vote for next to nothing compared to the value I have locked, witnesses earn crumbs compared to large stakeholders, so it's not like you get a ton for selling your vote anyway. So I want the best in there, and we have had 5 years now with no vote-selling, I know every single witness in the top 30, and I know none of them have ever sold their votes for money. You cant say that about any other chain, and there are a ton of reasons for that, social status on a social blockchain, long lockup, rep to become validator on dpos, etc. etc. ill kill it here prob make a post lol

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Exactly the strongest argument is the lock up. However, the lock up can be avoided using things like hive.loans by @klye. This is why I wrote the post.

We need to look for new ways to incentivize long-term thinking before bypassing lock ups becomes too easy. It will probably not happen with hive.loans alone because of liquidity, but some day it might become easy.

We have a lot of time but it's always better to plan early.

ya i forgot the second half of my comment. The attack vector for lock ups is to target a large stakeholder and buy the stake/private keys. With things like loan markets and the ability to sell your account keys with mutlisigs with ease, it becomes a more precise way to attack stake based systems as the money attack does not move the price and if the attacker is there to destroy, they don't mind the long lock-up (after an attack no one will want to buy your account, as that will be more savvy people, but exchanges MM bots, dexes and money still up that does not know an attack took place can still be exit liquidity)

So this comes down to the stakeholders as always, can enough top wallets be targetted to sell quick enough before anyone realizes. That is a tough issue and kinda new to me to think about as we never had to face this as an issue with hive due to not real way to trade accounts in a trustless way. but as we get closer to that tech, it will be an issue we will need to explore.

To add, this is less of an issue now, as the price of Hive is cheap, and large wallets are large for a reason because we believe in this tech. But in theory, as the price starts to ballon, larger early speculators would be more open to selling large otc accounts. So right now, it's a pretty much nonissue; you're not getting any of the top wallets and nothing close to being able to do a hostile takeover. But as distribution comes in and newer large stakeholders form, this becomes a more clear attack vector.

100% agree. Right now it's not a concern, but at some point the tech will be there and funds will have small allocations to hive without caring much about it.

A good starting point to find other defenses is Vitalik's Solution 3 in the blog. I'm sure we can come up with other ways too with enough time. But it's important to start thinking about this stuff.

Also, it might never be enough to be an attack vector, but will definitely be enough to cause some shitty governance decisions, like one bad witness or one useless proposal.

He definitely has some good ideas. the wait for forking being one.