If what BlockTrades and you say are correct that stake can be stripped at any time by a fork, that would make any investment into this foolish. Curious, since this is your take on it, why you believe anyone in their right mind would ever invest one penny that could be taken at any moment by a thief?
Edited to also ask, do you also see that exchanges will get tired of the new fork side chain shit that this would necessitate. Granted, most would just be fucked out of their holdings, but some who have means like those who forked Hive would be able to. At some point the exchanges would grow tired of such a game.
Whose value was stripped? Everyone like me that hunkered down and defended the network got paid out FAT. I bought so much Steem at 20 cents and below, and then all that value got copied to Hive. This was like the best thing to happen EVER EVER EVER. We've been in the news for months and we set precedence that DPOS is resistant to money attack, even when 70 MILLION coins were bought at a discount under the table.
Money can't be stolen from you, because the overwhelming consensus of the network is that would be fucked up and another fork would happen and we'd all make a shit load of money all over again while the attackers would get burned. Attacking this community didn't drain value, it created it. That should be incredible to everyone... it certainly is to me.
Those who were the target of the latest fork were stripped, many of whom are responsible for that FAT payout. While it looks for now like for many of us it indeed is the
I imagine that those who had large amounts stolen in that fork might disagree.
This is the disconnect in our views too. I think it was incredible what the group who put this together were able to pull off. I've read of several splits since joining and they all are worth shit with no community. What if they hadn't pulled it off this time? What if this incredible value hadn't occurred? But they still had their assets stripped from them?
This idea that forks can strip wallets of their holdings and it is to be accepted, and perhaps celebrated raises the hair on the back of my neck. One can't assume that there will always be a new fork to rectify if this were to happen. Or that the new fork would hold any value if it did. The precedent being set here that it's okay to take others assets because code says so should scare many from ever reaching into their wallet to buy in.
To play devils advocate here, suppose Hive wasn't created, or it was and it flopped as I suspected it would as I never envisioned us getting on exchanges of note. What would your take be then on say someone like Dan losing the million he paid out of pocket to buy in? Would your view on this getting a pass still stand? Or if he forked all of our stake out and there was no Hive?
Done beating this dead horse, you really don't have to answer. This whole thing sits so wrong with me, and while I came out better than before, no way can I not see that the 64 accounts in question weren't fucked and it isn't right. Not mad at you, although the tone might suggest it. Just mad at this idea that code would allow for theft being considered correct.
I think Vitalik said it best when he realized stake literally has to be nullified on DPOS because coins directly determine governance. If a DPOS chain is under attack or if a contentious governance split happens coins must be nullified on both sides in order to split the communities. Hive changed their distribution as well and I don't see you talking about that "theft" much.
When a POW coin forks it isn't the stake that matters; it is the hash power.
This is what secures the network. With DPOS stake directly secures the network.
The fact of the matter is that users who had their balances nullified (on both sides) need to accept their "losses". The users on Steem that got forked out on HF23 have still netted an extremely positive gain regardless of the frozen/siphoned accounts.
To pose this question of "Well, what if there wasn't a fork?" is absurd. What if there was no such thing as blockchain tomorrow? What if pigs could fly? This hypothetical situation does not exist in the realm of possibility. If Hive didn't exist when HF23 rolled around, HF23 would have automatically created Hive. There is no question about it. Now you're asking me what if Hive didn't exist when Hive is the whole reason HF23 exists? Like, I can't take that seriously. Hive CREATED HF23. We should be glad we were able to exit as much as we did because they are incompetent.
If anything, this should be a great example for you about why everyone should hold Bitcoin: because it is the most secure network with the absolute highest chance that none of this bullshit would ever happen there. Bitcoin forks; everyone gets coins.
I kind of feel like you two should come on my show today and duke it out. I would love to hear the debate. Both valid points. Both smart guys. Both know more than I do. Lemme know if interested. I'm on Hive Discord.
Appreciate the compliment, but will decline. I'm not much of a being on a show guy (would rather write a lengthy mini book here on the chain), and said pretty much everything I had to say on this here. While Edicted and myself differ in what we are seeing here, I don't view our differences as something to duke it out about. In many ways I consider him a mentor of sorts, as I've learned so much from his perspectives and zeal to share his knowledge here. Many who write on Hive come across as the writing is a chore they must endure to get a reward. It is always refreshing to read a post that has so much personality and eagerness to share in it, especially when it is packed with useful information. I appreciate his willingness to encourage dialogue on his post that at times might be contrary to his own. As I promised, last word on his blog was his. No need for the difference of opinion to become a back and forth with regurgitated positions. At the end of the day, neither of our views will likely influence this play as it unfolds, and not worth creating undue friction over it. All was said that was needed, and now I will go back to enjoying his sharing and at times learning from it. :)
On a side note, I hope all is well with your dad. I have worried about his health, and missed his presence here on the chain for some time.
I appreciate his dialogue as well. I loved having him on the show, and we missed having you there! My debates are always very friendly and super non-confrontational. It was a good show. But I can understand why you wouldn't wanna make it a "thing". I'm sure he'll appreciate your perspective.
My dad is back and forth on the health issue, but is doing well overall. Thanks for asking! I miss his writing on here. Ineed to get him set up. Tried a week or so ago, but he's out of state, and the new hive signer can be a beast.
@edicted I don't see your account name on the list of accounts that had their Steem stolen. Perhaps you should be a bit more sensitive to the victims of a serious crime.
Its nice to hear you bought in at 20c. Some of the victims bought Steem at $4.00!
Some of the victims are accounts that have never been posted or commented and others have been inactive for 2 years.
There are plenty of completely innocent bystanders that got killed in the Steem witnesses drive-by shooting of the Hive witnesses (who themselves have done nothing illegal).
I was going to mention as much but I forgot.
I would have said something like:
Then again, at the same time, I'm gonna be sorry for someone who made a bunch of money? No one has lost anything in terms of USD value and ANY Steem whatsoever that got cashed out was pure unexpected profit. You can't run around claiming Steem is a worthless centralized trash pile while also claiming they stole from you.
Not sure what you are talking about. The only coins that are going to be listed are Hive and Steem, and that's fine. Both chains had a contentious governance disagreement, and because governance is based on stake they were forced to nullify each other's stake. Everything is fine. I see no problem.