Dealing with Debt Collectors

in #ungrip7 years ago

DEBT enslaves the world!

Most world money systems are based on fiat currency; debt based money system backed by nothing but a promise to pay.  As such, these systems depend on debt to create money.  Seems really odd, but some research will confirm this.  A good video to watch that explains this is called 'Money as Debt' and can be watched for free on Youtube.  

 

As a result, debt is a way of life and that is why the world is in debt to the tune of over $68 trillion.  In Canada, the personal debt sits at a record 1.68 times greater than what the individual's income is.  As a result of usury (charging of interest), the hole just gets deeper and deeper.  Bankruptcy used to be a way to reset the clock but even that is getting more and more difficult.  So when somebody gets into trouble, what can be done?  Being hounded by collection agencies can be an extremely stressful scenario of an already stressful situation.   Allow me to share with you what I've learned and had success with in the past.  I'm not a lawyer, so please do not take this as legal advice but rather me sharing some interesting information that may help people.  Use at your own risk.

In this blog I'm going to cover what an individual can do to help protect themselves from the jaws of the sharks.  Believe me, collection agents are sharks and they hunt for prey, so anything we can do to stay out of the water is a bonus.  

A country bases their law form on religious texts

Canada is no exception.  So whether you believe in the bible or not, if you live in Canada or other colonies of the British empire,  it is prudent to pick up the book and start studying.  One important passage that has significant importance to this subject matter is Matthew 5:25

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him;  lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge  deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." 

When somebody makes a claim against us, it is our duty to agree with them.  If we disagree then we create a controversy and then the other party can drag us into court, just as we were warned about in Matthew 5:25.  If we want to avoid court then we must agree.  But how can we agree without getting us into even more trouble?  

In Canada, the one making the claim has the burden of proof.  So if a debt collector is claiming we owe money, the burden is on them to prove it.  So we accept their claim but put a whole bunch of conditions on that acceptance.  By doing that, we put the burden back on them to prove their claim.  If they prove it, then we have an agreement, no need for court.  If they fail to prove their claim, then there is no claim, no need for court.

This is called a 'conditional acceptance' and it really pisses off lawyers and collection agencies!  They don't want to work and they use peoples ignorance to intimidate others to submit to their authority or interpretations.  But if we live in the system, we have some tools at our disposal to level the field.  In Alberta, that tool is called the Fair Trading Act.  Other jurisdictions have similar legislation, so look them up to make sure that you catch the differences.  However, they should all be about the same as what I'm going to share here.

Legislation applies to them in order to protect the vulnerable

Section 12(1) of the 'collection and debt repayment practices regulation' outlines what is prohibited.  That means they are not allowed to engage in these activities.  I am only highlighting the common ones, but there are many other restrictions that these sharks must follow!  I share the knowledge.  What you do with it is 100% your responsibility!  Follow the link above to see the current version.  Read it.  Be familiar with it if you have debt issues.  Remember, this only works with unsecured debt.  Secured debt like mortgages and car loans are very different!

12(1)  No collection agency or collector may
    (d) if a collector, collect or attempt to collect a debt without providing
          (i)  the collector’s name as shown on the collector’s licence in all contacts and correspondence, and
         (ii)  the name of the collection agency as shown on the collection agency licence in all contacts and correspondence with the debtor;

If we conditionally accepted their claim on the condition that they provide proof of status as a collector and collection agency?  They all are supposed to be licensed, so asking for their license would then confirm their identification.  Them just giving their name is not proof as it needs to be the same as what is shown on the card.  So don't accept anything from them without them show their ID by providing photocopies of their licenses, individual and agency!  I've yet to experience anybody meet this one condition.  But there is more that we can demand they prove if their claim is to be valid.

(f)    fail to provide any person for whom the collection agency or collector acts with a written report on the status of that person’s account in accordance with this Regulation;

Agreeing to conditionally accept their claim if they provide a full, un-redacted written report on the account being collected.  Again, many fail to provide this.  Why?  Because the vast majority of the debt that debt collectors collect was purchased by them from the original debt holder.  What that means is that the bank or whom ever you were dealing with, sold the account to a third party.  The third party paid for that debt!  The original debt holder has closed the account.  Under contract law, it is my comprehension that I have no contract with this third party and since the original party has closed the account, my contract is done.  The debt collector now must intimidate me into creating a new contract in order to collect.  All I can really do is thank them for paying off my debt and tell them to have a nice day!  Until there is a contract, there is no report to provide.  The only exception is if the collection agency is only acting as an agent rather than the owner of the debt.  If so, then they should be able to provide a report!  

With that said, conditional acceptance by providing that they are in possession of the blue ink contract is also a very important condition to place on them.  Many of these organizations don't have the contracts any more as they were turned into assets and sold on the open market.  Yes, they do this and that is why they got into all kinds of trouble during the 2008 financial collapse.  No contract, no duty or obligation.  They play with fire, they are going to get burnt!

(g)    make any personal call or telephone call for the purpose of collecting or attempting to collect a debt on any day except between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m. in Alberta;

Keep a log and write down the details of all the calls, time, date, etc.  They love using computers to call people.  When those computers call before 7am and after 10pm, they have violated the act and can be reported.  By having the logs from your phone, you could provide those details to the minister responsible for managing these sharks.  

(h)    directly or indirectly threaten or state an intention to proceed with any action for which the collection agency or the collector does not have the prior express consent of the creditor or for which there is no lawful authority;

One common tactic that they use is to scare the shit out of the individual to submit and contract with them.  However, this can be called by conditionally accepting their claim upon proof that the collector or agency has prior express consent from the creditor to engage in such legal proceedings.  This usually requires a copy of the agreement or contract that the creditor has with the collector.  See how we can turn this around and protect ourselves?  With some knowledge, this suddenly can turn into a lot of fun!

(i)    contact or attempt to contact the debtor, any member of the debtor’s household, any relative of the debtor, the debtor’s employer or any neighbour, friend or acquaintance of the debtor by any means in such a manner as to constitute harassment, including without being limited to
        (i)    the use of threatening, profane, intimidating or coercive language,
        (ii)    the use of undue, excessive or unreasonable pressure, or
        (iii)    the use of telephone or e‑mail to call or send messages excessively;

Most people don't realize, but these sharks are not allowed to intimidate, harass, apply pressure or even contact excessively.  Nobody deserves to be treated in this way and anybody who does engage in behaviours like this is a bully and a violent offender.  Again, keeping logs and reporting it to the minister can help reduce or eliminate abusive behaviour by the sharks.  

(l)    contact a debtor’s spouse or adult interdependent partner, relative, neighbour, friend or acquaintance unless the contact is limited to the purpose of obtaining the debtor’s residential address, personal telephone number or employment telephone number;

Even if they do contact your family or friends, the ONLY information they can collect is the debtors address, phone number or employment phone number.  That is it!  They cannot ask where you are, what you are doing, or anything else.  So if you have debt issues, let your friends and family know so that the sharks can be called out on their abusive behaviour.  If they continue, then you can add a conditional acceptance upon the proof of claim that they can violate the act.  Well, of course they cannot prove that claim, so that shuts then down immediately!  I love adding these kinds of items in the letter.  The more proofs of claims that is impossible for them to prove, the better it is for us!  There is lots of them!  We just need to find them all so that we can shut them down.

(m)    contact the debtor’s employer for any purpose other than to confirm the debtor’s employment status, business title and the address of the business, in preparation for legal proceedings;

This is an important one as the ONLY way they can contact the employer is in preparation for legal proceedings.  If there is no legal proceedings then they cannot contact the employer.  How many people experience collectors harassment of employers which causes problems at work?  I bet a lot of people do.  So perhaps a proof of claim that the collector or the agency can violate the act by harassing the employer? I doubt they could prove that one either!  The more proofs that they cannot prove, the better!  They dig their own hole.   

(n)    contact the debtor when the debtor has notified the collection agency in writing to communicate only with the debtor’s representative and has provided a current address and telephone number for the representative, and the representative
 (i)    makes reasonable arrangements to discuss the debt with the collection agency or collector, and
      (ii)    discusses the debt with the collection agency or collector in accordance with the arrangements;

Most people don't realize this, but if you are depressed, stressed or unable to deal with life, we can have somebody else deal with all the calls.  By informing the agency in writing of who the contact should be, if they contact us, that is also a violation of the act and would make another excellent conditional acceptance point and a report to the minister.

(s)    charge any fee to a debtor beyond the debt that is due and owing from the debtor to the creditor, excluding a reasonable fee for a dishonoured cheque, if the fee was disclosed to the debtor in writing prior to the submission of the cheque;

Did you know that they are not allowed to add fees to the debt?  Except how many people deal with debt collectors who keep adding on more and more debt?  Most do and it is a violation of the act.  So if facing additional fees and penalties, perhaps a conditional acceptance that they proof that they can add these additional fees not withstanding subsection (s) of the act.  I don't think they could prove that one either.

(t)    refuse to provide sufficient information on request to the debtor to ensure that the debtor is aware of the identity of the original and current creditor of the debt and the details of the debt

The sharks love keeping this one a secret as they don't want people to know that they purchased the debt in the vast majority of the cases.  As a result, they don't want people to know that they are the holder and looking to make a contract with you to be able to collect on that debt.  We have no duty or obligation to forge a contract with the sharks and they cannot enforce the contract or the debt without one.  So perhaps another proof of claim that they provide the full details of the original and current creditor and the details of the debt and if they are the current creditor, provide the contract between us and the agency!  Again, most likely something they cannot prove.  

(v)    exceed 3 unsolicited contacts on behalf of the same creditor with a debtor in any period of 7 consecutive days, not including contacts with a third party to locate a debtor, mistaken contact with a third party, or contacts by traditional mail;

This one the sharks break ALL THE TIME!  Did you know that they are NOT allowed to call you more than three times within a 7 day period!  Some people get three calls an hour!  This makes a fantastic point for reporting to the minister responsible for the act and for another very powerful proof of claim point in your letter.

We all may have different reactions to the sharks but the legislation states that they are not to intimidate people.  What does that mean?  

verb frighten or overawe (subdue or inhibit), especially so as to coerce into doing something.  (Oxford 1958 Unabridged dictionary) 

The sharks are experts at frightening or even getting people into a state of overawe due to legalize and other language that people just do not comprehend.  So even if you are a strong individual, if at any time you fail to comprehend what the sharks are saying and feel compelled to submit or feel coerced into doing something that you don't want to do, then that is, by definition an intimidation and violates the act.  

When I wrote my letters, I gave the sharks 10 days to respond to my letters.  They failed, every single time.  So I sent a second letter, notice of default and gave them another 10 days to respond.  They failed, every single time.  At that point a default judgement could be obtained to protect an individual from the creditor.  I know this is a lot of detail, but if you did your own research you will find ways to work through this.  My goal was to avoid court and from my experience, this worked great.

Over time, I will share more information to help people work through the fraud of the Crown in regards to a money system that is based on debt and has no physical value at all.  Not backed by gold, silver or anything of physical value.  We cannot pay debt with debt.  So this is one way to deal with debt.  But do your due diligence.  There is lots of people out there teaching this information.  Look for them but be careful not to fall into the commercial remedy traps out there.  The process I outlined here is peaceful and does not engage in violence.  We agree with our adversary and put the burden back on him / her.  We maintain the peace and be peaceful at all times through this process.  I hope it helps reduce the stress and burden of debt.  

Sort:  

In the US we have the FDCPA, TCPA, the state version of the FDCPA and the FCRA to use against debt collectors. All of them provide for the debt collector to pay you for their bad behavior. Each one has their own amount, but the FDCPA is $1,000 alone. It can get costly for them.

Good write up:)

If you’re in the US just search the above acronyms and then you can have the legislation to apply what @wwf has pointed out.

A very informative article. Upvoted and resteemed.

Debt literally drove me to have a mental breakdown a few years back and we ended up going bankrupt. I wrote a blog about it the other day if you fancy a read... https://steemit.com/life/@beautifulbullies/bankruptcy-my-top-tips-for-recovery-and-staying-debt-free

Debt collectors are so scary and they really don't follow the rules at all. I was diagnosed with depression and they were informed that we had filed for bankruptcy, but still they continued to harass me for money. I had to eventually threaten them with the police. Up to 2 years afterwards, we still received letters from new debt collectors after the old ones had fraudulently sold them our debt (that had been written off by the courts).

I would love to say that I got into debt by being outrageous with money and had a fabulous time, alas it was not the case. It was credit cards and interest upon interest that caused the issue.
We managed to come out the other side and only have 1 more year with the bankruptcy on our financial history, but I will never rely on credit cards to pay bills ever again! They are a dangerous trap, designed to get you into more debt as you say, to earn the lenders more money.

That's brilliant. I know the laws are not the same here in the US, but the "show me the contract" one came up when they were foreclosing on houses NO ONE COULD FIND A DEED TO in '08 and after. Of course, unless the poor person had a lawyer that they couldn't afford to fight on this point, this didn't stop the foreclosure, but it was totally illegal.

There is a LOT of fraud and theft going on due to the corruption of the political, financial and judicial systems. You are right, it is illegal and unlawful! Only by knowing our stuff can we hold people accountable. They only way they get away with it is because most people are ignorant or don't want to know. Their silence is acceptance. So I stand up and say 'NO'. I feel for all those caught up in the fraud.

True story. There was one case of a 90something year old lady who underpaid by like 25 cents by mistake, and they TOOK HER HOUSE. The humanity is completely gone.

Resteemed! If people really understand how money works the revolution will occur tomorrow, non backed fiat money, no intrinsic value paper created by a central authority out of thin air...problem is, no one is bothering how money works untill a massive crash occurs...

I agree. With that said, I suspect that is what is behind the popularity of cryptocurrencies of late. Even then, the best hedge is knowledge, experience and good health to be able to live off the land. Big mess to clean up!

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Very informative, however, if a person lives within their means and does not incur the debt in the first place there would be no need for the collectors. The situation of debt is not the fault of the lender, no one is forced in any way to borrow. If the debt is honoured in the first place by the borrowers, these situations would not occur. If a person borrows to purchase toys, tv, games, boats,etc because they have to have it now,,,whose fault? Certainly not the lender, if a person over spends their income, whose fault? Again, not the lender. Honourable people repay their debts. There are some situations such as loss of job, sickness that may be accepted. I have no pity for those who, attempt to Sherk their obligations. Credit card acquisition is the same as self enslavement, nobody twisted anyone's arm to make a person obtain a credit card. It is the greed of the borrower, not of the lender, who lends the money, expecting to be paid back. My personal feeling is, I would rather give than lend and I would rather save than borrow.
Upvoted followed also resteemed.................billytwohearts.

I agree that people do overspend and they must take responsibility for the consequences of those actions. However, the creditors have a responsibility too. Because there is no more money, only fiat currency, how do people pay off debt? Some would suggest that the promissory note that was signed when they applied for that loan, is in fact, the payment. It has value to the creditor and they turned it into a stock (asset) and sold it on the open market (watch the second video). So what is the debtor paying for if the debt was already paid? The act of signing that debt instrument actually created currency for the system. If all the debt was paid off there would be no currency in the system. In fact, it is impossible to pay off all the debt because of interest!

So who's fault is it really? A strong argument could be made that the politicians who got ride of the gold and silver backed money system are responsible for this whole mess.

Again, I would recommend watching the videos that I attached to the post and if you want a good run down of how the banking elite infiltrated the US money system, this is the best video I've found that covers it in great detail.

In my view, the population have been raped and pillaged for decades as a result of some very greedy, powerful, psychopathic individuals. People are doing their best with what they have and the system is designed to make sure a certain percentage go bankrupt each year so that they can keep that system going and continue to steal wealth from the people through usury, inflation and legal acquisition of wealth. The only way I've found to escape it is to go off grid and reduce my exposure as much as possible. Tough decisions are required.

Perhaps cryptocurrencies may expose this whole fraud and help people out of the death trap that the current fiat currency system has created.