Forever Alone

in Reflections13 days ago

When people hear the word "immigration", they tend to have some kind of emotional response to it, bringing hard to define concepts like "culture" into the mix, often as if they themselves are a good representation of some kind of homogenous group that all think and act alike. People will fight for and against immigration, citing topics like the value diversity brings, or the costs of poor integration. But no matter what side you are on, immigration is unlikely to stop in most western countries for one very sad reason.


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Money.

What most fail to acknowledge or choose to ignore, is that everything is driven by the economy, no matter what your culture, religion, or belief system. You can be the biggest bleeding heart, or the most racist asshole, it doesn't matter - because your opinion is irrelevant. The only thing relevant to whether more or less immigrants come into your country, is the economy. Because the people who make the decisions about how many should come in, are driven by the bottom line. And it isn't just one single aspect of the economy, it is the whole enchilada.

For instance, in a population that is shrinking, demand for goods and services go down across the board. Sure, in an aging population some might go up like pharmaceutical spending, but on average, the economy shrinks with the population shrink. And it isn't just café and restaurants that are left empty, it is also the schools, the hospitals and the roads. And it isn't only the daily consumer items and usages, the demand for housing decreases, meaning that the majority of most people's wealth decreases with it also.

When demand drops, value drops.

At first this might sound like heaven, with less congestion, cheaper houses, more space, but the process continues and that cheap house you bought is now worth 50% of what you paid, and still falling, because the market is so saturated. The goods and services you used to enjoy, are no longer available because either there is no one to serve, or the demand isn't strong enough to warrant supply. Some want a return to the "good old days", yet they also want all the comforts of nowadays.

Immigration isn't the only solution of course, but it is the solution that is most aligned with the current economy, because the economy has been aligned with population growth. Even the old economies of old with Kings and Queens required war to expand the territory so there were more peasants to provide taxes, as well as to do the work and fill the armies. An economy doesn't have to function this way only, as it could be more circular, but it is very hard to maintain familiar standards of living in a shrinking population. Eventually, the costs are too high, and it all comes tumbling down.

Have you ever driven through a mining town out in the middle of nowhere that used to be full of miners and the support network of good and services to provide for them, but the mine shut down two decades ago? If you haven't done this, you could probably imagine that the place isn't exactly vibrant and full of opportunity for those who are still there, unable to sell their property and move elsewhere. But what happens when entire countries resemble these kinds of towns?

For instance, Finland is a small population of less than six million, but once upon a time, it used to supply 10% of the world's paper products. Not only that, it is a leader in paper machinery, forest machinery, and everything in between. A few decades ago, a blue collar worker in a paper company received over twice the average national income. But, as you can imagine with all the digitisation and shift to plastics, it isn't exactly a growth industry anymore. So, the pivot over the last forty years has been into technology.

But with a shrinking population and the ability to source internationally and work remotely, automate, use AI and all the other factors that will reduce the need for local workers. Average income goes down. Then there is less to spend locally on the goods and services, so demand goes down. The businesses that relied on having people buy from them, go down. Goods and service offerings go down in quality and range because they have to keep cutting costs and well - eventually, it is all third-world looking. But not everything goes down.

Crime will go up.

Perhaps it is a good thing if the populations across the world all shrink and everything is devalued, rather than trying to prop the status quo up with immigration. However, for those who don't want their culture to change, they are shit out of luck because a shrinking population will create a huge amount of volatility and shift in the culture, to the point that it might no longer be recognisable from what it is today.

So essentially, just accept that your culture, whatever the hell it is, is going to change, whether there is immigration, or no immigration. Accept it, and do whatever is possible to make the most out of the resources available to improve quality of life, but know, that if there isn't a broad economic incentive to do something, it won't be done, no matter how much you might wish for it. The only reason there is so much current conversation around immigration now, is that it is being incentivised by those who benefit financially from it. It has an economic incentive.

I added the title "Forever Alone" because in the countries that have very low birth rates or have artificially altered their populations like with one child policy so there are a lot more men, there are a lot of lonely people out there. A decreasing population takes away choice of partner, and then in a difficult economy, many wouldn't choose to have a child anyway.

As the economy collapses, so does society.

At least as we know it.

Taraz
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Immigration reminds me a lot of the NIMBYs. Yes, we want immigration, but only those who are exactly like us and do exactly the jobs that we don't want to do, or he ones we can't fill. The rest will only try to change our culture with their culture.

I just made the economic argument for migration in a post that Azircon wrote, about Japan. Migration is very similar to food - we have enough people (and talent) on earth to fill all open positions, but it's the distribution that doesn't work, just like we could feed the world easily. As long as the negative impact on an economy is not big enough, the rules won't change. It would be smarter to start early on, create a educational system that is adapted to challenges posed by an immigrant population, and in one or two generations there would be a good workforce to keep funding the social system. But that requires forward thinking, and quite a bit of effort - most countries wait until the roof is burning.

but only those who are exactly like us and do exactly the jobs that we don't want to do, or he ones we can't fill.

Which is why they are creating robots for it. But, they too will change culture. They already are.

But that requires forward thinking, and quite a bit of effort - most countries wait until the roof is burning.

Most people too. We keep voting for the people who promise to solve our immediate problems and every few years, we choose more when they failed.

I read that in this century the growth of the Earth's population will stop. Probably in the following centuries the population of poor countries will migrate to rich countries. In my opinion, this is good for the environment.

In my opinion, this is good for the environment.

The environment doesn't care. We should of course, but we don't. If we did, the most valuable companies in the world would be clean tech companies.

Our great-grandchildren will live more comfortably in a clean environment.

It's already happening, there are more immigrant and people still planning to relocate.
But I doubt if it would stop the earth population.

I've never really had a problem with immigration like a lot of people do. Half the US is really worried about "the great replacement" right now, but I kind of feel like it's all just a big melting pot anyway like they used to describe it.

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I agree with you. I have no problem with a huge melting pot and a more diverse country. I just don't want to see any Carthaginians, Klingons, or Ferengi in our pot!

I'd be more worried about Romulans than Klingons. The Khitomer Accords basically made them a non issue.

The funny thing is, we are all replaced eventually. We live 80-odd years, does it matter?

Yeah, I kind of feel the same way. I have more important stuff to be concerned about.

In North America, I can’t imagine a population decreasing. Immigration is a weird one with us as well because we are all immigrants really, fresh or a couple generations.

Immigration here went nuts a few years because the liberals opened the door and half the planet wants what we have. It was done without much thought to where the people would go or where they would live and that demand is driving up housing prices like mad. Different problem than shrinking population and I am glad I bought a house years ago.

I am alright with culture changes here just so long as the American ghetto and guns don’t become it!

I was reading a little about the "points system" for immigration in Canada, as they are considering it here. Do you know much about it?

It was done without much thought to where the people would go or where they would live and that demand is driving up housing prices like mad.

It is the same in Australia. The irony is, if they stop immigration now, prices will plummet, as they were highly overvalued.

I don't think that any given culture would recognise itself from a decade ago never mind longer.

Yeah. Especially with the lack of commitment to anything these days.

That is a very pessimistic view... I think we have been artificially going up for the last 15 years and it is time for a major recession.

After that a couple years later we will have a recovery. At least that is my vision for United States...

It is all artificial, isn't it?

Yes, the economy in US has been propped up by both administrations and natural boom / bust cycles have been disrupted. It can only lead to a bigger bust later. You cannot artificially pump it forever...

Many times, when people argue about immigration, they focus on culture or personal feelings without dwelling on the pros and cos of the immigration policies. Some people fear losing their traditions, while others celebrate diversity. But beneath all the debates, one truth remains: governments will always make decisions based on what keeps the economy alive, and I believe everyone will do the same, too, as far as the economy is concerned.

The harsh reality about immigration isn’t painless. It is something every nation of the world needs, and the nations that suffer more of immigrants are the developed nations.

No one can deny that immigration brings language barriers, cultural clashes, and uncomfortable changes. But without it, communities risk fading away entirely. In the end, it’s a choice between adapting to new faces or watching everything slowly disappear.

What is it like where you are - are there many immigrants? I don't know much about it there :)

There are immigrants in here, too. We have more of Chinese, Pakistan, and other countries in Africa and also Europe.

An easy and clear example as how countries need immigration to keep its economy as well as many other services alive is the policies little villages in Italy or Spain ar launching giving free housing for families with children willing to relocate to keep the school open or the local cafeteria.

As I have been spending more time in Portugal in a rural area, you see tons of abandoned houses in villages, most of them ruins. The whole region population has been reduced in the past decades as youth has left for better opportunities in the big towns, but thanks to immigration increase from europeans moving from other countries, building new homes or restoring old ones and spending money, you are starting to see how the villages are starting to get some more activity, first from the construction industry and also in restaurants and little shops.

Hopefully the changes in distribution of people will lead to a more balanced distribution of wealth. Especially now with the "WFA" possibilities, we shouldn't have to just move into over-crowded cities.

Honestly, you say it all these makes more sense.
Immigrating has it's own advantages and disadvantages and we mostly look at the positive sides of it.
Aside looking for greener pasture I also feel immigrating to advance more on a skill and returning back to build that which is already existing can help prevent the "forever alone" reward.(Just thinking out loud)
But this is so completely, I feel it's a matter of choice and good governance.

Would you consider moving to another country for work for a few years?

Yes I will.
I am seriously and strongly working on it.
I am looking for way to improve myself and to acquire more knowledge. I also what to earn better.
What about you?

I was expecting a sad story of how you or a loved one got deported or something. Not what I was expecting, but a good read. Thank you for sharing I enjoyed it.

That is a weird conclusion to jump to. Though, perhaps in the US it might be possible.

Due to the current low wage limits in our country, more and more workers are migrating to other capitalist countries. There, they are somehow subject to the cultural characteristics and laws of the respective countries because they have to do their jobs there. Since only people with a certain amount of wealth can migrate to capitalist countries, the poor and unqualified do not come. This is an advantage for the respective country and it is possible to pay migrant workers lower wages than workers in their own country.

Just imagine if a job had the same value no matter where it was done or who was doing it.

For example, I have a lot of Nigerian friends who have immigrated to the United Kingdom and even other countries.
When it comes to immigration, a lot of people are desperate about it.

I’ve seen cases where some people pretend to be in love with a white man or woman and they get married to them. After they’ve been helped to immigrate by their lover, they file a divorce since they’ve gotten what they want.

It’s all because of money. An average Nigerian makes $50 monthly and sometimes not up to that. I love how you asked us to accept things and hope for a change.

I never knew the people in Finland weren’t that much. I have a friend who immigrated there recently

After they’ve been helped to immigrate by their lover, they file a divorce since they’ve gotten what they want.

The problem with this kind of behaviour is that they still have no network, making being part of society very hard. But, it might be better than in Nigeria (or wherever else). But, the average of society goes down because of it. People should look to add value to their community, not take it.

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So essentially, just accept that your culture, whatever the hell it is, is going to change, whether there is immigration, or no immigration. Accept it, and do whatever is possible to make the most out of the resources available to improve quality of life, but know, that if there isn't a broad economic incentive to do something, it won't be done, no matter how much you might wish for it. The only reason there is so much current conversation around immigration now, is that it is being incentivised by those who benefit financially from it. It has an economic incentive.

There's an economic incentive for proper migration. There are those who benefit from it. Syrian migrants have arrived in Türkiye due to the war in the last 10 years. Turkey has received a substantial sum of money from Europe in return. At the same time, employers have hired workers cheaply. Migrants have performed harsh and inhumane labor. This definitely has a significant economic connection.

The phenomenon of migration undoubtedly brings with it a series of issues that need to be addressed and understood, which are sometimes overlooked.
Personally, I live in a country burdened by this phenomenon, which fragments all families, and it's truly difficult.

This is very insightful. Many people focus on culture or identity when discussing immigration, but often overlook the main driver the economy. It’s true that money and labor needs play a huge role in why immigration continues, no matter the debate.