I wrote a post last night about being the father of a girl or a boy, and how it doesn't matter to me. However, if you have a read through the comments, it is pretty obvious that my opinion, isn't the reality for most people, in many places. In many places, it does matter if there is a son or a daughter, and most of the reasoning comes down to *economic incentive.
Sad eh?
While people talk about "tradition" what most of the tradition actually is concerned with, is wealth maximization and protection. It is about generational wealth through inheritance, or the financial independence (or lack thereof) of the child, or seeing men as reliable arbiters of money, or whether they are able to get a job or....
whatever, whatever, whatever.
And this is one of the issues that the "equality between the sexes" movement fails to address adequately. Because no matter what happens in the workplace, if the family cultures are living in an economic paradigm of passing inheritance to the male child, or where there is a cost of a dowry paid to have a woman married off to a man, it isn't going to have a great effect. Because in a world driven by money, financial incentive is going to dictate activity. And when there is a financial cost to having a girl child and a gain for having a boy child, there is an asymmetry that is of course going to lead to inequality.
Changing corporate culture doesn't mean that there is going to be a change of cultural tradition, where a woman "loses" her name in marriage, meaning that her father loses the continuance of his name. And while that itself is an antiquated tradition, it is still just a name. What does it matter? My name will be buried if my daughter marries, but it will be buried soon enough anyway, because we all come to an end and die, but life goes on. What is the point of a name?
Legacy?
And this is what a lot of it comes down to, because people want their life to count for something, like being able to pass on a name, or a financial inheritance like a house. But, in many cultures still, inheritance doesn't get split evenly among children, and there can be a "tax" on having a girl, as the dowry needs to be paid. Even in western tradition, the wedding is paid for by the bride's family, though this is probably rare these days, as most spilt the costs, or the couple pay themselves.
Tradition is a scourge on society.
Not because all traditions are harmful, but because traditions are a cultural algorithm that gets put into effect, without sensitivity to the changing environment or needs of the community. And you can say that "not all traditions are bad", but the fact is that under the right conditions, all traditions *have the potential to damage. You might be thinking about the barbaric things like female circumcision or foot binding - but if fir trees were an endangered species and people were cutting them down to fulfil Christmas tradition, it is harmful.
All traditions run blindly, have the potential to harm.
*Anything performed blindly and automatically has the potential to harm, because the conditions the algorithm was created for can change, and then it no longer behaves appropriately. Like a GPS guided combine harvester, that loses track of the satellite positioning and rolls through a kindergarten.
Traditions need oversight to ensure sensitivity.
Not sensitivity of the culture. Sensitivity for the conditions. If a traditional people hunted sea turtles and now sea turtles are endangered - stop fucking hunting sea turtles.
And you might be saying, "Hey Taraz, you have got well the fuck off track here - I thought we were talking about equality for women!" And I will ask - Aren't you paying attention? So much of the problem in the world lays in traditions and the defence of traditions that are no longer appropriate for the conditions we have. A group of them are surrounding equality between men and women in things like inheritance and pay. There are many reasons for the pay gaps, but a lot of those reasons are also due to traditions.
And before women start blaming the patriarchy...
A lot of the traditions are perpetuated by women themselves. Things like who stays home with the child, as often the woman wants to stay home longer wit the baby, even if it would make financial sense for the man to stay home. Is it social conditioning, or genetic desire?
Hard to say, but my point is that the world has been set up on traditional social structures, and people have become accustomed to relying on the rules of the tradition, rather than being sensitive to the environment. However, what ends up happening is that people want to change the rules of one tradition, but also want to keep other traditions that work in their favour, often setting up a double standard.
What would the news be if it was him pushing her face?
And there are many double standards.
Let go of tradition.
It doesn't mean kill all traditions right now. It means that "everything has its time and place" and at some point, the time for every tradition comes to an end, to be replaced by another tradition. It doesn't matter if it is the oldest of religious traditions, if it is no longer serving the positive growth of individuals and the community, it has to be retired. But we needn't wait until it becomes damaging to individuals or the community to retire it, we just have to pay fucking attention to the world around us, our actions, and the implications and impacts of them.
Do they align for a better world?
No?
Fuck it off then.
If we all had the understanding that traditions are fluid and constantly under environmental pressures to change, it was a natural part of our own growth, perhaps we would get as attached to what we have done in the past, but rather consider what we are doing right now instead.
You might hold some of your cultural or personal traditions dear to you, but run yourself a thought experiment and consider under what kinds of conditions it could become harmful. It is not that there are those conditions now, but realise that there is the potential that at some point, the tradition must be replaced with something healthier. And then perhaps, we could think of healthier things to do, rather than be dictated by tradition to begin with. But, if you realise that your tradition is already turning harmful.
Stop it.
Pretty easy.
Taraz
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Can't switch people off and on like a light switch. Traditions take time to change, sometimes many generations pass before things change much.
For me it wasn't social conditioning or genetic desire...it was what was best for my children, namely breastfeeding. I, for one, am so glad that this is returning to the norm. When a man can breastfeed a child naturally, we'll talk lol
I don't know much about breastfeeding, but boobs, now them I like.
(Yep, I know this is a stupid fucken comment, but clearly I'm ok with it.) 😁
lol it's like a siren call 😂
The power of boobage is massive.
Genetic desire, right? The desire being the way we have evolved as a species. Social engineering isn't natural and usually fails to allow for actual genetics.
In Finland though, it is possible to split parental leave down the middle, and more men are starting to stay home with the kids after the breastfeeding stage. Definitely isn't 50/50 though.
lol I guess you got me there! I'm all for naturally feeding my children much like getting pregnant in the first place...no baby bottles or turkey basters for me 😂. I was built for breast feeding (having breasts) and you were built for impregnating things (having a penis)😂
Here it is the same with some men taking over the house and child rearing, but it isn't the norm.
Yup. Traditions, ironically, are often held onto tighter when the world around appears to be changing.I'm a bit scathing of this because it's really just an arbitrary way of doing things that can be changed. How ridiculous to hold onto something BECAUSE 'its tradition's, even if, and especially, some people are disadvantaged, oppressed, or harmed by it.
Like, for eg, the whole Anzac thing here. What a debacle. It's become about myth making rather that remembrance), and any challenge to how we remember (like the black diggers who were ignored for years) is met with hostility because 'we have never done it that way before'. Or doubling down on an anthem or a flag that's only been around for a relatively short amount of time..people like to hold onto identities that make them feel important and that work for them, at the expense of others. It's the height of stupidity to me. Not everything needs changing, but if there's a challenge to how things are done, we need to ask why at least without getting all fucking mental about it.
We forget sometimes that there are many cultures on Hive and I'm often shocked by traditional attitudes toward woman. I usually say something as I can't help myself and feel by playing devil's advocate perhaps I can raise some questions or at least show not all the world thinks like that. And yes, woman can perpetuate them too, but I tend to think that's because there is no other option and they've been brainwashed BY the culture they're in.
Racism is traditional too, as is slavery, and women as property - should we hold onto it? Of course not, but people want to pick and choose the traditions that work for them, even if they do harm to others.
The numbers that went and died in the war were unknown, because they were largely unrecorded.
The flag thing irks me a bit. Firstly - I think Aus should be a republic. That aside - *it is just a flag. A picture. And the aboriginal flag? That is only about 50 years old. If a country has to have a flag, make a new one. A cool one - something with a dragon and lasers. :D
But, people need to feel "connected" to something and when it comes to images, they are simple ways to convey a lot of emotion and memory. They are a story. So I do get that people try to hold onto the story they know and like. But still...
And the men have been brainwashed too.
Yes! What about a bunyip?? If you're going to believe in a myth? Or a wombat, coz we were so fkn upset some tank picked one up. Or just get rid of the union jack and we can all happily sleep under the stars, surely?
Ah fuck - you have me here. I have been in Europe too long and their stupid mythical animals are stuck in my head. A bunyip would be awesome.
This has always been my first choice.
If my wife and I had had children, I would have been happy with whatever we got. That being said, I am a kind of emotional guy, so I do tend to more easily connect with my nieces than my nephews. I expect that would have been similar with my own kids.
Girls are more interesting in many ways too. They have a different kind of view than the boys tend to have, and are a bit more "mature" in their thoughts. I think it makes it easier to connect with as an adult.
Yes, that is a good way of looking at it. Do you think that women feel the same way though or do we just think they look at things different because we look at them a certain way?
Dude, good to read that for you your little girl's gender is not an issue, especially when you state so clearly how economic and traditional pressures do give it unfair weight elsewhere. The analysis of how these dynamics belittle girls hits the nail right on the head. And for that very reason, your daughter is not only the opportunity to live that equality you advocate for; she is, above all, a true blessing that goes far beyond any economic ‘incentive’. She will fill your life in a way that neither money nor traditions could ever dream of. Truly, enjoy and cherish this unique treasure you have. Blessings.
I think it belittles us all. People seem to think that something like women not getting paid as much as men (which isn't quite the case they claim) only affects women. But, those women are often in relationships with men, right? It affects all relationships. Similarly, if a couple get divorced it is pretty much automatic that the kids will go with the mother - why? There are so many issues with not being sensitive to the environment.
So what you're saying is that my impartial views are better than those biased ones? :D
No. I am saying that my views are better than everyone else's views.
A healthy child is what we should all want and the sex is not important, but I know it is with many cultures around the world. I am hoping to be able hand over inheritance to my kids and grand kids one day and if it is a decent size it will be in a trust protecting them and those that follow. I have seen it all too often when the first boy gets the house and the others very little which seems really unfair.
In Finland, the rule is "split equally among siblings" though it can be challenged occasionally - most don't. Except the very wealthy with delusions of family grandeur.
A man's daughter may grow up and become an outstanding person. A son may grow up and become a good-for-nothing. We don't know the future.
I know my grandfather was happy to have one male grandson. My father had seven sisters and no brothers.
There was a family I grew up with and I went to school with the youngest, a girl. She had eleven older brothers...
Tradition is still what many people practice till today that in some cases it doesn't seem right to accept but because it is tradition there is no choice than to be involve in what have been existing. We are experiencing changes everyday in our lifestyle but to implement them in areas that matters especially tradition is really not working out.
Indeed, tradition often feels like an obligation that is hard to shirk, even when it no longer fits with the times. You illustrate well that resistance to change and the challenge of updating long-established customs. It's a very valid point about that cultural ‘inertia’, but I note that over the last ten years things are changing...
Things are really changing no doubt but it will really take time to eradicate the ones that really matters.
True
Yet things can change much faster from the negative than they are, if people didn't hold onto tradition as if they are natural laws.
Implementing these traditions seem impossible because so many people are involved, a lot of them believe strongly in them and fight to keep them at all cost. Some do not even understand why those traditions exist but they hold on to it with all they've got. It will take a lot of convincing for them to see from a different perspective but things are changing, slowly.
For instance, in Nigeria, a few years ago, no parent will agree to their child getting wedded without a traditional wedding or send forth ceremony and a reception. infact, it would be an insult to them. It began to change gradually. These days, parents let their children choose what they want for their wedding. It didn't just happen overnight, it started with one parent agreeing to it, then others saw it and it was fine, heaven did not fall. Others began to embrace it gradually and it's spreading. There are still parents who will never agree to it but my point is, it's happening. This is just one out of a lot more changes gradually happening on this side
Ever noticed how many of the social issues faced are steeped in tradition?
So many. I can't even begin to number them but I'm hopeful. Light has come and change is happening
In my first comment, I meant to say "implementing these changes". An error I made there
This is the thing - there is always a choice. Even if it is an uncomfortable one that upsets others.
Every tradition has pros and cons - but isn't that true with modern tradition in favor of which we are debating ? In my country the law strongly protects women, and men can barely do anything. Many women take advantage of that and drain everything from men, even some men have committed suicide just because of that.
So I would say sex does not matter, if both have respect for each other and are given equal privacy, privilege by both of their families ( if living in joint).
Yes! Some of the modern traditions are terrible. They aren't to create equality, but further division. It is silliness.
I am against traditions. There are very heavy traditions in underdeveloped societies. Many of them are against women. The fact that women are physically weak has led to disadvantageous rules. There are traditions that are in favor of women. The interesting thing is that there are women and men who do not want this to change. I think they should also be open to change.
People only want to change what doesn't benefit them. But if they risk losing what does, they will opt to keep the status quo. It holds us back as a species in many ways. But, a lot holds us back because we are prejudiced for what we had, and fear what might happen in the future.
Exactly. That explains why despite progress at work there are big gaps and inequalities still exist because of those traditional structures.
Everything is connected, right?
Exactly, it's all part of a bigger picture
This was a bold, nuanced take, and honestly, it’s refreshing to see such real conversations happening on chain. Sex might not matter in the broader sense, but the way society’s wired? It definitely does. Following your account now, curious to see where your thoughts go next
How do you think these matters impact in your local area?
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STOPAfter marriage, most of the women in my country give up what has inherited from any ancestor of them. Also, there is a general belief that woman does not inherit, which is a bullshit.
I would have nailed what was inherited to me if I had been female :)
Definitely bullshit. I think that there are so many issues that stem from family tradition, that then play out and impact on society. If people want change - change.
It mostly happens in the patriarchal society.
All I can say it is a powerful and provoking post about that challenges. Your opinion about reasses and adapt these practices to better suit's in today's world is very important and also inspiring.It's great reminders that to focus on what truly helps in each individual. Just my opinion.
You say:
I agree with the essence of your viewpoint critiquing statism in favor of functionalism. However, imagining future evolution is no less important.
In my country, Cuba, there was a period when the "revival of traditions" was promoted to bolster national cultural identity. For example, traditional festivals and dances saw a resurgence. Later, that faded into obscurity. Today, a raucous rhythm known as reggaeton dominates the music scene.
Another example: there is now support for "female empowerment" as an overreaction against machismo and femicide. At a friend’s gathering, we met two Spanish activists. At one point, all of us—men and women—danced together, except for them, who danced independently. A friend invited them to dance with him. Their sharp reply was, "We dance alone." My philosophy professor once remarked that feminism is "machismo in reverse."
I reiterate my agreement, Taraz, with your approach and stance against dysfunctionality. But now, what are the alternatives?
It’s not just about demolishing the old structure but also considering what you’ll replace it with. If what you erect in its place is worse, dysfunctional, or uglier… No, thank you. Iconoclasm, when paired with fanaticism, often destroys without replacing.
This is why I admire the approach of a genius like Salvador Dalí. Broadly speaking, the artistic avant-garde attacked figurative art and academic craftsmanship, proposing to replace classical forms with the distortion and chaos of the subconscious. Dalí preserved the best of both worlds. He formally maintained figurative art while embedding it in a surreal, dreamlike atmosphere. I believe this artistic diplomacy is what we should aspire to.
Hello friend @tarazkp, I hope you are well. I have been reading information coming from Finland and the possibility of Russian military action in those lands.
Anything is possible. But it is highly unlikely. If it happens, it amounts to nuclear war.