How Much Hive?
Not much at all. I asked @dalz this question a couple of days back. The nice gentleman that he is, he always comes back with the data! My question was:
out of SPS stakeholders who holds 200K SPS or more, how many have 10K hive or more
EDIT: Hive holding of TOP 200 SPS Stakeholders
edited based on the newly supplied data from @dalz
Same chart with log-log scale for better visibility
This is the data that dalz provided below, I have re-formatted it a bit and removed two accounts (sps.dao and terablock-bsc, as they are holding accounts).
They are arranged according to their decreasing hive stake. This is because I wanted to see how little hive the top SPS stakeholders own. Now, this is hardly the real top SPS stakeholder (we will get to that, that is easy). Rather they are large enough SPS holder who are holding some hive. There are obviously larger SPS stakeholder out there, but they hold virtually NO hive!
A bit of basic analysis
These are some approximate numbers:
- There are only 46 such accounts! Due to dara parsing issue there were 3 accounts that hold below 100K SPS, if I forget those 3, it is 43 accounts
- At hive we typically believe 10K Hive + HP is a good first target (at 100% voting power that is about 0.10 hive upvote).
- A good second target is typically 100K Hive + HP (1 hive upvote at 100%)
- There are only 11 Splinterlands players who owns 100K hive!!
This is slim pickings!
I do not know the right number of human players at Splinterlands currently. I have heard 5000 to 7000 is a reasonably good number. If we take the 5000 number, then it is 0.86% of the players hold 10K hive or more!
On the scatterplot in the beginning, I marked myself as yellow and marky as red. These are both anomalies, one holds large amount of hive, but little SPS. Likely a card investor, not a player. The other, me, hold large amount of both. Well I am the one making the pitch.
Splinterlands players should hold more hive
I have explained some of the reasons here on a previous post. Let us hold that thought and look at the data slightly differently.
Here the 46 accounts are arranged as per their decreasing hive stake, which is the left vertical axis in a log-scale. The red line represents the hive stake as per users. The right axis is the SPS stake, represented as blue bars. I had to use the log scale for hive, because otherwise it will be very hard to see. You can see the sharp drop by number four hive account and then another drop by mangowambo!
There are lot of large SPS holders in this plot, who hardly hold any hive. Not to mention there are many others who are not even on this chart!
Top SPS holders, Aug 23, 2024
This should be a familiar plot, similar to ones I have presented here. This is off course the top 200 SPS stakeholders. #1 being @vugtis with 41M SPS staked, to #200 being @slobberchops 671K SPS staked. Both happens to be my friends! I am the red bar there at #4.
Here is the current stake status as of Aug 23, 2024
Total Staked SPS in circulation: 873,677,150.17 in 231,990 accounts.
Percentage Owned by:
Top 10: 170,897,964.803 Staked SPS (19.56%)
Top 50: 309,650,659.07 Staked SPS (35.44%)
Top 100: 384,985,427.5 Staked SPS (44.06%)
Top 200: 473,095,028.729 Staked SPS (54.15%)
Here is the current Top 10 holders
We can compare the stats to May 19, 2024; when was the last time I looked at this stat and wrote that post.
Total Staked SPS in circulation on May 19, 2024 : 770,279,561.144 in 309,024 accounts.
Percentage Owned by:
Top 10: 125,410,743.365 Staked SPS (16.28%)
Top 50: 249,194,082.242 Staked SPS (32.35%)
Top 100: 315,892,844.1 Staked SPS (41.01%)
Top 200: 394,989,324.521 Staked SPS (51.28%)
3 percentage point change is noticeable at the top, and the bottom. I call it the vugtis effect!
Consider buying some hive folks!
Its good for you and the ecosystem.
Cheers!
To get the most out of HIVE, you are expected to be able to write, and not everyone can do that. It's still decent at 9%+ for curation though.
Yes. The idea I am pushing is two fold.
They can hold hive for curation return
They can hold HBD for interest
Also some do create content and have decent curation following, thanks to the Splinterlands curation, but they sell most to all of it.
We can change that.
Having HP also allows them to reward SL content on Hive, and help build and support the community that makes it more than just a game.
Yeah. You know the funny thing, there is a niche group of old SL players who writes 1-5 posts per week and gets decently rewarded due to long standing auto-votes. Their hive earning is higher than their SL earning. However, unfortunately they sell it all.
SL has never really had much of a give back to the community, community.
To the hive community you mean. Yes, I am working with both Clay and Matt so that we can change something.
To Hive also to each other perhaps. There are exceptions of course, but it has always seemed more individualistic and maximizing the self over others. I think that is why the bot farmers have done so well over time without much to stop them for most of that period. On hive, that was nocked down pretty fast.
I think you can also take advantage of the SPT token from the L2 of Hive, days ago I published a post about that and how to recover it, it can be a way to grow the HP and at the same time the rewards of the content creators of the game.
Just a quick note that this is for the top 200 SPS holders that the SL API provides ... its for holders with above 600k SPS
I tried to combine multiple richlists, like staked SPS holders and liquid SPS holders to get wider data, that is what some of the lower SPS holders come in the list ...usualy the liquid SPS holders.
If there was longer richlist that go down to 200k SPS, the number of accounts would probably be above 500.... still the above data is a good indicator showing the state of the top SPS holders
Yes this is top 200 SPS stakeholders. But even that has some data issues. How come I am seeing less than 200 k SPS in the data and also missing some who are higher than 200k. The second point can be explained easily but not the first.
I don't know of a tool of site which lists beyond top 200.
OK, I wanted to give you some quick results but obviously did a bad job at explaining them, sorry about that.
It goes like this:
I used two richlists to take as much as possible data for top SPS holders:
You can easily find this on the peakmonstets site as well. I could have gone with total SPS holders, that combines these two, and probably should have go with it to for simplicity reasons. But I wanted to have more data and used two separate richlists.
The staked SPS richlis goes as down as 670k staked SPS, but the liquid SPS richlist goes as down as 43k SPS, becouse not a lot of accounts holds significant amounts of liquid SPS. I even removed some accounts from the bottom of the list.
Becouse of this you are seing accounts with 100k SPS (liquid) but not accounts with 500k staked SPS. Hope now is clearer, sorry for the confusion.
About data for more than 200 accounts I asked crytpomancer and he also confirmed there is no way around this.
Not a problem at all. This is a thought process we are learning together!!
Ok I think we just need to look at staked SPS, your first list.
Then see, what is the Hive+HP staked + delegated in those accounts
Lets try that and see what we get.
In the meantime we will both enquire if it is possible to get beyond top-200 SPS stakeholder data.
PS. If cryptomancer says no way, that probably means NO WAY :)
Your partipation in thepeoplesguild podcast was really an eye opener for me and I completely agree with you, as a splinterlands player for over three years now I plan to do better from now on, thanks for explaining everything in the podcast. I've just made a (re)introduction to get a new start at Hive, stopped powering down and will engage more from now on!
There you go. I consider you a success case :)
Wonder why I didn't make that list as I hold more than 100k hive+HP.
Totally agree more players should hold hive, hopefully the splinterlands marketing plan will have some incentives to grow hive holding as well as spl assets.
The data is for the top 200 SPS holders .... the cut off is just around your number between 500k to 600k .... the Splinterlands API doesnt allow longer richlists.... but you are defenetly in!
Yes. The trouble is I don't know of any public tool that provides beyond top 200 SPS stakeholders
And you also have 200K SPS staked?
The data could be incomplete. Dalz was having issues in parsing the data.
Yup, way more than 200k SPS about 523k. I have been on hive for over 5 years and playing splinterlands from the beta cards release.
Playing splinterlands battles across the table at our Adelaide in person monthly meet ups is the best fun.
There are probably more accounts out there, making leader boards are a great idea, they encouraging people to climb them.
Dalz mentioned he will do this again from SL API. Hopefully we get more reliable data.
Yea becouse of the limit from the SL API for top 200 SPS accounts... its just above his stake ... from around 550k and above SPS
I've long thought that Splinterlands seems somewhat separate to Hive. You have to hunt around their site to see a mention of it. They could have integrated blogging even if it was to post about a particular battle. Hive ought to be the social hub of the game, but I expect many players never use it. Of course we all have more than one interest and they may find more than talk about the game.
I've not played in ages as it became less fun and I didn't find the time. I still have a stake for some passive income.
We are working towards changing that Steve. People do blog at hive on SL. They have a hive community and get decent support. Trouble is people mostly see that as short term income and sells. I am working on it so that it can be changed
Good to hear it. I just think it would help if the site made it more obvious that this was an option. Given how their tokens as doing I would think people would like extra income.
Getting people to stake $HIVE is a separate issue. I get that some really need the money, but long term investments can pay off.
It doesn't need to be stake all and don't take anything out. If we can demonstrate that keeping even a small amount, say 10% of the earning staked, that might help during a rainy day, and will definitely help with the account growth.
I've been thinking, should I aim to have 10k+ HP in my own account on DLMMQB? I spend most of my time in project management, where I already have significantly more HP.
Since you also delegate a lot of HP, when you set goals, do you count delegated HP or any HP within projects you own?
Delegated HP is counted
I also ask myself, am I a net positive or a net negative for hive?
My thoughts are not limited to just splinterlands, but again I didn't knew about hive. When I joined it was because of splinterlands videos.
Apart from the challenges promoted by the Splinterlands team, any attempt to obtain curation or a fixed voting public is almost laborious and often without a positive result. There are countless Splinterlands players who barely know how the Hive ecosystem really works, or even the need to have CR for some in-game transactions. (That is, remembering that on some occasions the game itself delegated a generous amount to complete some rentals or in-game transactions).
So the question remains, is Splinterlands bigger than Hive?
You know your last statement reminded me about something I saw at the recent DNC convention in Chicago! But never mind that :)
The question is not who is bigger or smaller.
The question is since both are at the same place how can we improve the relationship and interaction.
I do agree with your comment on receiving curation at hive, I think the blame can be directed both ways. However, we are not planning to playing the blame game.
Please let me know how I personally can help folks like you.
It would be interesting to try it like other Blockchains, even if Hive isn't just for that. Similar to what happens on the Arbitrum network perhaps? Where events sometimes share the same prize pool and focus between Arbitrum, which is Ethereum's second layer, and other games also powered by the Ethereum network.
Perhaps a campaign on Galxe, or Zealy if you prefer. We can't just invite people to use Hive and expect them to settle for pennies or, if they're lucky, dollars.
You can check what I'm talking about in the posts on #introduceyourself , not everyone gets the positive vote to begin with. It seems that only women get it. Strangely so.
@azircon
I've built up over 1500 Hive just from blogging but my account isn't growing as fast as I'd like so I will take you up on your advice to buy and power up some Hive. One area I'm considering is actually renting out some of my excess SPS and using that DEC to purchase Hive. I'd like to hit the 10k threshold that you set, that would be a solid goal to work towards. Thanks for putting this together!
Yes, I have noticed. I have some remedies:
Engagement and networking. You make a lot of vids and engage with your comments on YouTube, so you are familiar with the process. You have to do the same at hive
Obviously if there is not any or enough comments how can you do that? Simple solution is you have to reach out
Meaning you have to read and comment on other experienced hive people. It doesn’t have to be just Splinterlands
Yes increasing your wallet size is helpful ;)
Also mixing your videos with text and pictures can sometimes be helpful
Thanks for the tips!
Happy to be one of those 11, I do agree that Splinterlands players should be holding more hive however I don't think it should be some crazy amount. For a typical player I honestly wouldn't expect more that 1,000 after a year through some blogging and threading.
Seems like that data could be incomplete but that 11 might get to 22, but I am certain that it won't be 100!
So it's an exclusive club. I think we need to increase our members!
Well, yet data may be incomplete. I have my @mightyrocklee account with 83K Hive and 161K SPS not on the list, you may have others missing. There are players with low SPS and lots of Hive, and others with lots of SPS and little Hive. And all in between. Let's hope so! The HBD incoming to Splinterlands looking good.
Data is indeed incomplete. I mentioned it. We are working to get the data.
The Splinterlands data should be easy to get, regarding the amount of SPS. I think pairing them is the hard work. To cross check 2 databases using the usernames, one with the SPS, one with the HP/HIVE. But then, I am not that skilled in Hive stuff. He he!
A couple of years ago I had 50k HP and 0 SPS. I currently have 250k SPS and 100 HP. I will buy HIVE, but only in a bear market, I think the purchase price will be around $0.05
Well this is bear market for hive :)
It's hard. If you're into Splinterlands, you'll always need more money for in-game assets. I sold most of my Hive a few years ago when it was way up, and I put a lot of it into Splinterlands. If I had more money, I'd look to get more into Hive, but there's just not enough to go around.
It is hard, that is why we need discipline and mutual support and counceling :)
Thanks for the post.
I don't share your angle on the data, correct me if I'm wrong, your take is one of disappointment that SPS holders hold so little Hive ?
I think the amounts of Hive held by those players is pretty decent, if we are to assume that their main interest is in playing a TCG. I'd go so far as to say that it's a lot considering you do not really need more than a few Hive for RC (if you are dong a bit of renting etc.).
You give the aim of 10K Hive as considered the starting goal. That is for someone who is "into" Hive and it is not natural to assume that someone playing a TCG will "get into" Hive.
Go get this bleed over from SPL into Hive is very good really, and I believe the numbers are good. ( and sure more is always better)
I consider myself an average example of humankind, so my case study may have value.
I joined SPS in late 2021, very crypto ignorant, but wanting to learn more, I followed the P2E wave, enjoyed the game, committed on the future thesis of SPL and since then I've slowly become more familiar with Hive, first for Hive Engine and getting SPS, DEC for the game, then to bring fiat into SPL via LTC, and gradually over time I've explored more projects and learned a bit more about Hive.
My HP is about 1,500 and that really has no bearing on my SPL life, it's come from a slow intro.
My point is this, SPL is contributing a lot to Hive already I feel with ppl like me having HP who otherwise would never have even come across Hive.
OK, my stake is tiny compared to some, but I'm growing it, which again is interesting , as my focus is SPL.
One final observation, everything I learned about Hive was an uphill struggle, I collected bits and pieces of information from people who were kind enough to reply to my questions in comments etc. , things many experienced Hivers take for granted, like understanding what powering up and delegation are and how they work, the whole HBD thing ( learned about that from your interview on ppls guild). The ecosystem is full of jargon and assumed knowledge, very hard to understand from a cold start
Suffice is to say, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here.
There is a lot to unpack here: I will try some bullets
I believe, just like you said, that if people help each other, we can more forward in a better way.
Let me say one more thing, if you just copy-paste this as a post, it can be a good post worthy of many upvotes!
Many thanks for being here and helping the ecosystem grow. If you have any question please ask me.
Nice concise reply, thanks!
One of these fine days I'll get round to writing something, trouble is I'm not particularly imaginative :-)
I may take you up on your offer of an explanation when I next come across something that is confusing me, be prepared for some basic questions, or, hey!, maybe I'll formulate my questions into posts so all can benefit from any replies.... now that's got me thinking !
Exactly my point. Imagination is overrated :)
Conversation is underrated!
wow! Less than a hundred accounts with more than 10K Hive are really very few. Especially if you take into account that several witnesses are included in that list.
Perhaps the most interesting thing would be to know how many of the Splinterlands players actually know about the existence of the Hive and how it works. Perhaps, the vast majority of these players have never interacted fluidly with Hive due to the complexity of the multiple viewers (peakd, ecency, hive.blog, etc...) and it is very likely that they are registering with another username on each platform.
For example, Splinterlands always points to Peakd for most of its proposals, but I dislike Peakd and prefer Hive.blog, so every time it sends me there, I have to do extra work to see the document on Hive.blog which is the viewer I prefer. Things like this are what fail to achieve true integration between Hive and Splinterlands.
One way to get an estimate of how many Splinterlands players are aware of Hive is by measuring the number of posts those players have made. I believe, based on educated guesses, that no more than 300 players have ever posted to Hive. If players do not publish, they cannot have Hive power, much less think about making investments in Hive.
And I, who review the posts on the Splinterlands tag every day, can assure with great certainty that the vast majority of those posts are only made for the reward and are always the same authors.
In fact, for entertainment I find it interesting to pull those numbers from the blockchain and determine what actual percentage of Splinterlands players have interacted in some way on Hive.
But, in any case, if there is a large base of players who know Hive, and who can contribute to its development, Splinterlands should somehow encourage them to actively participate with small steps, such as each player doing their duty and vote for the 30 witnesses of their choice. ...
I am trying to change that.
In fact a whole bunch of people write on hive but they neither hold hive nor SPS. We got to change that slowly
One could speculate that since the huge "bump" in Splinterlands users a few years back was substantially driven by external interests, so a lot of those folks never really bothered to learn much about Hive.
Case in point, our 30-something son — a keen gamer — has a Hive account because he was interested in the game, but he had zero interest in content creation or anything like that, nor in looking at other people's content. Whereas he had a passing interest in "play to earn" he's never treated any of this as something to invest in. He's not active anymore; these days his girlfriend is more important than gaming...
=^..^=
Agree, and yes I was there the whole time and I have seen the run up and then the subsequent fall. What I am thinking that we can't prevent people from stop playing. People start games, and they stop. Most don't stick around. However, some that do, stick around for a long time. I am talking from the point of view of a 24 year span of time when I played Pokemon! :)
My point is what we can do differently for the people who stayed? How can we suggest a mutual benefit...
That is the direction I intend to explore.
We can probably learn a fair bit from looking at the game concepts that have been around a long time... like Pokemon, or (in the genre of Splinterlands) MTG which is now 30+ years old.
Both have developed huge peripheral industries... what can we learn from that, and how can it be applied to the blockchain/web experience? Can Splinterlands be enhanced by some kind of "analog" branching out? Moreover, do we have a solid understanding of why those who have stood by Splinterlands and are still active... have chosen to do so? Are they motivated by the actual game, or by the investment potential, or both?
=^..^=
These data are very useful because they provide insight into the combined staking propensity between HP and SPS.
@azircon Maybe the data is not complete though because I have:
but I am not on the list and I should be.
The SPS data is incomplete, only the top 200 available, which taps out at staked SPS of 627K.
I am trying to get more data
Ah ok, thanks for the clarification
great analysis. I could have 212k SPS and 61k HP. To be honest I would like to have at least double the SPS but I hope for a bull market to move some still immature assets.
@tipu curate
Upvoted 👌 (Mana: 53/63) Liquid rewards.
I saw you ask in Dalz thread and I was hoping to catch this data when it got published. Interesting stuff there. I don't play Splinterlands anymore but I still keep an eye on the community.
We are still working on it. It is a work in progress.
Here I thought I might make the list, but I guess not... I figured slobber would be in there. We kind of came up through Splinterlands together, but at some point he far surpassed me!
List is dynamic, I am sure you can be there in future :)
What you have demonstrably proven here is that SPL does not bring users to Hive. The names on your list are all pretty much stalwart OG steem/hive accounts that have been here forever and also happen to play with SPL.
Some of those names on your short list are directly involved with SPL, none more so than YabaPMatt, the game's literal developer.
So once again, the hype that SPL is good for Hive is sort of discredited, consider than when we give them such a huge chunk of the Hive Project Proposal money, for a project that is demonstrably really not doing much for Hive itself, at all. When proposals that WOULD benefit Hive are going unfunded and giving up due to lack of funds.
Incorrect. They brought the largest amount of people to hive. Problem is not all gamers are content creator
Large amounts of gamers left during the crypto downturn
The ones who are there don't hold significant hive
I am planning and working towards to change that. So that these people do hold higher amount of hive. It's a process and it will come along.
I personally don't care your other conclusion either. You personally didn't stay and you don't hold any significant hive. So you have similar problem.
According to the this very post, they dont hold hive, they dont use the other dapps, they dont create content, that literally means they dont use or "got brought to" hive by every kind of math or metric.
As for me, I definitely left for awhile but before I did and since I've been back I've contributed Apps, entire communities, built a chain based charity and delivered tens of thousands of dollars worth of humanitarian aide around the world, and use the chain around 20 hours a day, or code for it, or guide minnows on it, or contribute to others projects or communities 100% of my time.
Took time off for health and international move and came back, and yes I didn't leave my wallet full just to sit dormant during that time.
Facts are facts, SPL has brought almost zero attention to "hive" despite lofty promises and VERY costly input from the DHF yet by your very own list and this post above, has done nothing to further the ecosystem in return but strain nodes with extra blocks, producing extended unseen costs.
Sorry that those conflict with your feelz about the game, but its not mathematically or financially beneficial to hive.
That is the point, that they don't hold enough hive.
We are trying to change that.
Also if you read more into the comment you will see Dalz's data is incomplete. We are working to fix that.
As I mentioned earlier. You got to learn to distinguish between FACT and OPINION. This is one fundamental problem in present world. I am a scientist. I have two masters degrees and a PhD. I have taught my students my entire life to learn to distinguish between them.
You are entiled to your opinion. They are NOT fact. I do not need to agree with your opinion.
Ah, those degrees explain everything.
Good luck, getting those 13 year old card gamers to hold Hive and HBD, if you can do it, thats what hive needs. But in a world with about ten billion copy cat crypto card games in it, its been pretty clear those players dont end up crossing over on the chains.
Thank you for your best wishes! I appreciate the kind words.
Thank you for this report
I believe in Hive and the bright future of all the early writers who join the adventure
We are still very at the beginning of the coming massive adoption of the cryptocurrencies.
Regards
👍
Super cool graphics! I hope to be on both charts sooner than later, but I can't seem to stop buying Gold Foil cards long enough to actually accumulate $SPS or $HIVE.
I'd like to see more names on this list and more active players/bloggers. This is good info thanks for sharing.
Jesus - Vugtis and Cryptoeater have significantly grown their SPS holdings over the last few months...
Also - thank you for these posts, you're the reason I am being more interactive on Hive and I appreciate the info - especially the way you present it!
Came here after reading an article by @gadrian. I used to think that many SPS Whales had significant stakes in HIVE. Most of the large SPS HODLers I interact with are like that. If we promote more players to earn/invest in HIVE, it would be beneficial for things such as DHF Proposals. If we need our interests represented on HIVE, we need to stake more HIVE. Most of my growth has come from writing on HIVE + earning curation rewards. I worked my way from the bottom and I know that it is possible (but very difficult) to grow on HIVE.