"When the tide goes out, you find out who was swimming naked"
One thing I am very happy about is the drop in the price of steem. The reason I am happy about it is because it wakes people up. When people make more money than they expected, many tend to get lazy, greedy, or flippant with it.
"Steem prices screem higher, for at least a short time."
As the price of STEEM rose dramatically, some interesting dynamics occurred. The early investors and users found themselves sitting on a virtual cash machine, at least for a few months!
Notice how much time the price of STEEM has traded between $0.00 and $2.00.... If you step back and look at the graph above, you will see that roughly 90% of the time has been spent at this level (illustrated in the red box).
"Bots bots everywhere, and not a human in sight!"
The spike in price for a few months did however lead to all kinds of cool and not so cool systems to be built. And as many are well aware, the bots appear to have taken over. We have bots for almost everything now. We greet the newbies with bots. We sell our votes to bots. We buy our votes from bots. We even curate with bots.
"What is Steemit?"
Many people have come and gone in the short time that I have been here (that's called "churn"). And the humans that I talk to on a regular basis seem to get frustrated at the lack of attention they get. They work for hours to make a quality post and format it properly, and then they post it and are lucky to make $1. They then wonder, why should I spend my time making a good post and engaging with others when I can just use the bots to multiply my money!
So this raises the question, "what is steemit?". What do the whales want? What is the answer by the people that control the platform, the witnesses?
"Are we a social network or are we a bot gaming system?"
I would say most of the lower level newbies and minnows come here with the idea that steemit is a social network. But within a few months, those that survive realize that the real way to make money here is to figure out how to "game" the bots. I am no different. Sure I do my best to make good posts and "engage" others, but honestly I make far more from finding the loopholes in the system and "gaming" the bots.
What do you want me to do?
Since you (the witnesses and whales) get to decide what this place is, what do you suggest we focus on in order to build the long term value of the platform? Where do you want us to spend our time and efforts?
Am I worth more to you helping to build up our communities like @newbieresteemday @greetersguild @friendsofgondor @newbiegames or would you rather I focus my attention on finding the flaws in the system and gaming the bots?
Essentially what do you want people to think of when they say "I'm on steemit"... Are we a social network or are we a bot gaming system?
"Witnesses and whales, you reap what you sow!"
I said in the beginning that I'm happy the price came down. Because when the tide goes out, you do find out who has been swimming naked.
When people make more money than they expected, many tend to get lazy, greedy, or flippant with it.
This is exactly what happened to many early adopters that have found themselves very flush with cash. The price rise led to laziness, greediness, and some just downright tossing the money around with no rhyme or reason. The consequences of these actions are what has shaped the system.
Face it, if the witnesses and whales continue to use their power to reward bot gaming activities at the expense of supporting community building networks like @curie @steemcommunities @qurator or even smaller ones like @helpie @asapers and hundreds of others too, then it will achieve the results that have been incentivized. If you are happy with the "churn" of people that come and go, and don't want to be a social network; then by all means continue on the path you are on. A bot gaming system we will be!
Just remember people aren't stupid for long... They learn and adapt at amazing speed.
"Two first steps for witnesses and whales if you want to fix the system."
If the witnesses and whales want to be a social networking platform, they could fund and support any of the communities that have largely been ignored. You could of course ask me which are the good ones and I would tell you, but there is an easier way. Asher @abh12345 runs reports on curation and engagement, its called Asher's League of Excellence. He lists the top 300 "engagers" in that league every week. Those are the people you should want to support. If they are engaging, then they are the future influencers. And the influencers are who build any network out.
The second step that should be taken is to put the ACTUAL facts in the bot replies. Instead of telling people "congratulations you were just upvoted x%" which seems really good to many people but is useless and misleading, you should instead say "you received an upvote and the loss (or gain) to you at the current steem price of $y was x%". Since 15 of the top 20 witnesses also own bots, then this small step of truth and honesty will show that you care about the "consumer" and that you are interested in more than your own profits. The elimination of this misleading information will lead many to stop using the bots, causing a drop in demand, thus many of the bad bots will go away. We would be left with a healthier and more straight-forward system that would require less investigation and leave more time for social interactions too!
"Lets Talk Witnesses is coming soon to give the people access to the witnesses."
We at @newbieresteemday are happy to be presenting a series of witness interviews in the very near future. We have already lined up witnesses like @yabapmatt @steemcommunity @qurator and we have many more in the queue. We have a list of questions for each witness to answer, but the one I will want to ask most is this:
Greetings man
Excellent post I was here recently and a few days ago I invested personal money here and improved my sp. I do not know how it works with bots, but for now, I only think of healing the posts that I think are good ideas and creating my posts (which I think have good content for readers because they are done with much study and affection) and give upvote in them and in some of my comments that I think have been well done. I suppose that is not the best strategy to gain more sbd and sp, however, would be a means between helping me and helping others.
I imagine that anyone who has put together the sps and sbds from 2016 to 2017 when the sbd hit the price of plus or minus $ 13 at the end of December, has come out of steemit if you have done power down with a well-filled bank account.
What do you think I said?
I would like your opinion on my strategy !!
Thank you and good morning!!!!
thank you for your comment and for the nice things you said about my post. As to your strategy, that is up to you. I personally think that everyone can do what they think is best. I think you might irritate some authors (not me), if you vote your own comment to the top of the thread and don't upvote the post. Some would call that thread high-jacking... Like I said, I don't mind as I think everyone can do as they wish. And I am not here for the money, so upvoting my post is certainly not necessary.
And yes quite a few people made a bundle during 2016 and 2017... I imagine most made quite a bundle!
Well done keeping the cool Dave. I also don't care too much about it, but I don't think it is a viable long-term strategy. So @julisavio, unless you have a very important point to make it can backlash upvoting your own comment. So that would be my advice. I know curation rewards sux currently, but you will hopefully gain more in the long run by making awesome comments and only upvoting the author's post.
An excellent post Dave, resteemed.
I doubt you'll get much response from whales and witnesses, mainly because the majority are involved in the cash machine / laziness you discuss above.
The bots are here to stay I'm afraid, they make the owners/delegators too much money to give up.
There could be space in the market for more 'ethical' bots though, we shall see...
Thank you very much @abh12345! I see that at least one witness @steemcommunity (@paulag upvoted too) isn't afraid to "go on the record" on this issue. So even though I only got one witness/whale to weigh in, at least I know one of my 30 for sure! ;)
I think the bots will stay in some form, I agree. But the good thing is the longer they stay as they are, the lower the steem price will have to drop to reset the imbalance. Its the basic laws of nature, and frankly I love to hear their squeals when it drops as that means they are waking up!
I think there needs to be a major marketing campaign to talk about the paid upvotes and who is getting what from where.... and the policies that are agreed upon to keep minnows suppressed and keep major stakeholders close to the same % influence they currently have.
I think people would be surprised to know that @hajein is not in the top 10 earners when we account for incoming wallet transactions, curation rewards and alt accounts.
Why do people get so up in arms about @hajein taking a share of the reward pool when we have some unethical/dishonest bot owners pulling in more daily to their wallets from their scams? <-- these people feed off the newbies promising them more views and followers while not even looking at the post they upvote at a loss to the person buying the vote ... and then there are all the spam bots that spam your wall, with a dishonest representation, if they upvote you...
I call them scams because they are advertised as being 100% upvote auctions; but in reality you get a max fixed return that is lower than advertised.
My hope is maybe if we talk about these upvote scams and the owners, similar to what the people did to @haejin, then the delegators will stop loaning their infleunce to these unethical services and instead think about the long term health of the platform over short term monetary gains from a scam.
interesting point of view @royaleagle! :)
more like bot "cash cow".. a lot of posts where bots upvote don't score have enough views to warrant the rewards.
If you go by a standard $1 per 1k or 2k views (and that's for viewers served ads in wealthy nations), then 0 people on steemit could possibly have that reach simply because there aren't enough people in all of steemit. Although there have been a few posts that have gathered attention from the outside world, which is what people should really be aiming for.
I agree with you @charitybot... The biggest issue I see is the turnover for that to happen... Most people are consumers, but they have to see a place for them too in this ecosystem. Right now the attention is barely on the producers, the consumers have nobodies attention. (for now) ;)
yes I agree with you @dillagr! I see it all the time.
The biggest downside to Steemit is bots. Upvote bits, downvote bits etc etc. It’s claimed that the best content should rise to the top but that is never going to happen with bots auto voting all the time.
unless 1) the rules change or 2) the investors change ... But without one of those 2, I agree with you!
You read my mind!
haha... very very cool... Can I use that pic? I love it!
Go for it :)
Well @davemccoy, you raise many excellent points, including the primary What IS Steemit? question.
The sad thing is that even though this is — by most standards — a well-read and "successful" post, there is essentially a near complete absence of whales and witnesses from the 160+ comments below (well "above," when I post this). And sometimes "silence" makes a bold statement, as well.
In my limited wee minnow (more like a tiny bit of "cat fluff"...) travels I have come across more than a few well-spoken content creators who have opined — in different ways — that "Steemit is an awesome place for developers and lousy place for social content."
The sketchy history of Steemit suggests this was largely created BY developers with the "social bit" largely being an afterthought or "window dressing." Very little more. Consider this: It's 2018 and we are sitting here with a circa HTML 4.0 looking interface with some creators even hard coding their posts in the age of drag-and-drop widgets. Hello? This is a SOCIAL platform... and yet without basics like photo albums, the ability to "group" followers, no messaging, etc., etc. which speaks VOLUMES about "what's considered important" about Steemit.
Meanwhile, all the talk from STINC is about "SMTs this, and SMTs that, and SMTs here and SMTs there." All of which — pretty much — amounts to more pandering to developers.
Which brings us back to your question: "A Bot Gaming System," in the sense that this is yet another "feature" relevant to developers not to the general social media user... but I should add that the Bots are just a small segment of a greater underlying issue.
It all gets very complex: part of the problem we face is that we have a bunch of people running the asylum who suddenly ended up with (the equivalent of) "$2 million in the bank" thanks to being early adopters, where before they were struggling techs in a cube farm. Expecting them to know what "investing" is — including such concepts as "preservation of capital" — is probably folly. And because much of this was "instant wealth," there's that easy come, easy go attitude that would gravitate someone towards "Geez, I can make a LOT of money with bots!" rather than examining something like "How can I turn my $2M windfall into $20M in the next 10 years?"
Seems to me that's a large part of the struggle around here. Bots are simply a superficial manifestation of that.
Personally? I just want to create enjoyable content with some "value" to people, and enjoy the social interaction.
But what do I know? I'm just a little black cat...
=^..^=
very good analysis! I'm very impressed for sure! That is both insightful and enjoyable to read @curatorcat. I don't know your background, but I can tell you have some serious analytical skills and the understanding of how things work. I do agree the bots are a manifestation of the bigger issues, and I think you hit the nail on the head about the early adopters. That is why I think we are destined for a big "reset", because in my experience that is how the system will purge the excesses. I was talking with a friend of mine that go in early and he was telling me that he could buy all the steem he wanted at $0.19... ps... I would love that as we would be able to get some leverage here if we could buy in that cheap!
Its nice meeting you and glad you are entering the Play 4 a Newbie Challenge too... I look forward to being your teammate in the future!
Best answer so far. Very well articulated and hit on some key points I don’t see elucidated clearly often enough 💯🌹❣️
@davemccoy, I think bots are still required at the moment as we still do not have enough traffic, views and votes within the ecosystem. Steem is an economy based on participation, I think we basically have a lack of that. And when humans are not enough to generate the level of participation, bots take over.
I think this is all temporary. When we reach a stage where we have enough human participations, bots will eventually lose their effectiveness. By then, we can truly see who are swimming naked. The hivemind update will bring communities function and we can all organize ourselves into proper groups instead of using tags and external services like discord. I hope that will lead to more participations from humans.
that is an interesting theory @culgin
I can understand to a degree, but I also think that the people with power will see one day that their "power" is better spent in developing people and not increasing their slice of the pie. If the people were supported better by all the various groups, "churn" would slow down and they would get a much higher degree of participation.
I definitely agree with you that things will change that will lead to more human participation. Its just a matter of the path we take to get there! ;)
Okay, so for a while there, I was thinking you were ready to succumb to the bots, which was very unrallier like. :)
This post has only been up for seven minutes, but it's rare that I get in first on any post, let alone yours, so here goes:
I hope you get a response from many of the witnesses, including the bot owners.
My opinion is, you and me and everyone else who believes in this STEEM ecosystem and community, should stay the course. We should hold the line and keep holding the line.
The only way this place improves is if we're able to gather enough people to our side to make a difference. We don't need everyone, we don't even need a majority. All we need is 5-10% of the active users on the platform who have been around a while, 2-6 months or so, and who are willing to stand toe to toe and hand in hand against the tide.
People stop using the bots, revenue goes down, regardless of the STEEM price.
People ignore the trending page, the bot users get their 15 seconds of fame and their fat bot bill.
People continue to engage through posting, commenting and human curation, the number of garbage posts will go down and the amount of the rewards will go up.
The course is true. The course is life. The course is the way.
Stay the course. Hold the line.
haha I had you worried huh? lol
I agree (as usual) with most everything you say Glenn. I think it is a matter of "holding the line" as well... I am with you and will stay the course for sure! And I agree that over time we can be a part of something special! :)
ps... yes you were fast! I held off commenting to give everyone time to state their opinions and others to read everyone's thoughts... but I saw your comment quickly and was happy to see you and I still think alike on this one! ;)
I think someone actually beat me in but I was the only one here when I was writing my comment. It just took longer to finish. :)
I think you and others are already a part of some grand and purposeful. It's just keeping that going and expanding it. Between what you're doing with the newbies and what Asher is doing with his leagues, and what others are doing, Steemit will be righted. Hopefully, we'll all be around to see that, too, since it's a long haul uphill battle. :)
I knew you were first lol...
And I agree with you that we are actually a relatively small group but making great progress in networking with each other. Its really not about the groups themselves, its the connections and friendships we are making.
ie my friends and your friends are each others' friends one day as we work together and build that trust and respect necessary to really have impact. I see many of the same people every day and the cool thing is we have expanded the group by being inclusive to all.. This place is much smaller than people realize (in terms of true engagement!)
Absolutely, @glenalbrethsen. Count me in.
Those bots undermine Steemit's potential to do that rare thing - inspire and drive social impact for millions while creating financial value for all involved at the same time.
Enough of us holding the course, and change will happen.
I'm wondering, if it would be a good idea to have this as a quasi-community of some sort?
It might be a good idea. That community might already exist for all I know. I wouldn't be surprised.
Sad thing about the bots is, many of them were created to help people as a workaround. So the intention was good, just not the solution.
And since the solution is based on a long term outlook, we need to continually remind ourselves and others, that's what it is. Long term. It's not a quick solve.
bowing to way above me at 3rd place @glenalbrethsen
Do people still look at that???
I check it about once a day to see if there is any real steemit news.
I'm afraid the new folks do, and since there's an ongoing supply of them on a minute by minute basis, and as far as I know, no immediate redirection to anything else, that's where they end up, because that's where people go to look for things everywhere else.
Then, when they get there and see what's there, if they don't immediately equate it to trash, they think that's what passes for good content around here. So, the cycle continues to perpetuate until someone can get a hold of them that's not just inclined to flag them into oblivion because they didn't bother to read the Steemit FAQ or etiquette pages.
I know there are greeter guilds and such working to orient people, so I'm certainly not knocking them. I don't know enough to know what they're doing, but I'm sure they've got more than enough to handle, especially if they're trying to doing anything else on their own accounts.
True. True indeed.
BTW you do realize you get a bonus for for spelling out the emojis right?
::rolling eyes:: = 2 words
not sure if they even count 🙄 as a word
wait wait unread that part... you already have beat me 5 times better! haha
Actually, spelling them out might count, because Asher isn't counting words, he's counting characters, which could include (this I'm not sure of) spaces, returns, emojis (or their alphanumerics), punctuation and formatting styles, like bullets.
Don't quote me on that. It really depends on how that all gets filtered, but a character is a different animal than a word.
Aha! yes, I see that now...
haha... yes he is above me too! And I see he is picking up steam too :)
is there a reputation requirement or could infinite bots proxy their vote? I can't find out about this anywhere and I think it's insanely important to address that or fix the loophole it creates. Also is there any tool to see who is getting their proxies from and who is sending out proxies? Not accusing anyone, but if that is the case anyone who is a witness could have paid to be one. Thinking like, if you spent maybe 20k on bots and got like 12-15k bots out of it and proxied their vote and then vote for yourself as a witness. Out of the almost 1 million users that is a 1.5% vote that puts you at 80 in the top 100 witnesses. Pretty important for fact checking! That is a lot of money, but to someone wealthy they could become a witness overnight using bid bots for reputation boosting and then bots for witness voting.
I'm sure you could track down all this info... You might want to see what others have pulled from the data... And to a degree I think for sure there are some of these happening, that is how we got haejin to be unstoppable in the first place. I don't know enough of the intricate details to really comment on "how" they do it. But in my mind it is very clear that the bigger players have their money in the bots (and they are earning a pretty penny from it too). If you find out, please let me know... I will be happy to see that info!
Your post is so encouraging most especially to us new entrants. Thanks alot for this .
Thank you for the comment and for reading. I try to be balanced and explain what I see! I have been here every day since Dec when I joined, so obviously there are things I like. But of course there are things I don't too... That's why I think education is important to set the right expectations! :)
If you have any questions, feel free to ask any time! :)
That scares me at any time a rich person can buy like 300k of bots and vote in like 30 witnesses or their own accounts and take over the blockchain no?
I read through your post, loved it, then I read through the comments, and it seems as though everyone is in agreement. There is however one thing missing...the bot owners responding. I hope it happens here Dave, but I won't be holding my breath:)
Please don't hold your breath! :D
hahaha no worries Ash!
thank you my Queen! And yes... we only have one witness in the comments ... guess who?
hint: he just told you to not hold your breath below! :D
haha Dave...throw it in my face why don'tcha ;) I noticed @abh12345 graciously appear :)
awww I wasn't throwing it in your face, I wouldn't be so cruel.. remember I am a nice guy :) (or was it a bad boy, I forget) ... lol
I hope you are have a great evening! :)
hahaha Dave I was just messin' with you! Bad Boy Mccoy can't see a joke when it's right in front of his badass face lol
haha... you're back... yippee!!! Now that's more like it, berating me and others again... that's the farmgirl I know ;) :P
Damn straight! Don't forget it buddy ;)
Well, Dave. You fooled me. As I was reading down I thought you were getting ready to announce that you were going to the dark side. And I was ready to mourn another good man that fell for 'money now is better than a home later' trap. I'm glad I was mistaken.
OTOH less than 2% of the votes on Steemit are bot votes. Granted it's a disproportionate amount of revenue, but it's not like everybody is doing it. I actually think the numbers are getting better for the white hats :) Slowly, yes, but I also think inexorably.
I also think that we are the early adopters. Many of those other guys were just stupid lucky with 'right place/right time'. We that are actively working it RIGHT NOW are going to be the ones that shape the future. So the reality is we'll get to ultimately answer that question.
Thanks for a wonderful post. I really do appreciate it.
haha.. no @bigtom13, I'm not a darksider :P ... I'm glad I kept your attention though :)
And yes I do very much agree with your point about us being the "early adopters"... that is something that gets lost on many so I'm glad you brought it up!
And I definitely think now is the time for us to continually step up, while everyone is down about the price drop, it is our chance to gain some serious ground... glad to have my fellow "white-hat" by my side ;)
Some of us are humans and we are artists trying like crazy to produce Original Creative Content and Artwork for Steemit but we barely get noticed at all. I have created thousands of original work of art here so far. I am bringing hundreds over from Facebook. Real High Calibre Artists through a Group I created there called Steemit Artists ..... @curie @ned @steemitblog @pharesim
excellent @offgridlife ... I have not heard of it but I definitely think we need more great content so I am happy to hear about your group... If you want to connect to me on discord, I will introduce you to my contacts so that you can get your group known by my contacts! I am at davemccoy#2479 there!
I was wondering the same question. I recently reached 100 followers but I noticed most of them are bots, so what’s the sense of having followers that don’t read your posts? 🤨🤨
101 :) ... and yes that is true. but the key is how many actual connections you have. That's the key in the long run. The amazing thing is that I have met a large percentage of the whole community in just over 3 months. I wouldn't have thought that was possible when I first arrived. Its a much smaller place than we thought... To me that is encouraging because the platform will adapt and improve as time goes on!
I agree, A few that I got to know because we live in the same Canton, of course we support each other.
But even nicer, a old neighbor (his sister was my best friend) in Germany found me on Steemit! Amazing he recognized me as we didn’t see each other for over 20 years... 😁
That is very cool @lugano... Also I noticed in your profile that you are a dog rescuer... You should meet @theuxyeti.. he is also into pet rescue too... :)
Thank you I checked out his blog 👍
Cool.. he's a good guy so its always good to make solid connections.
I couldn't sum it any better. You really nailed it. I totally agree that Bid Bots has ruined this platform, but we plankton and minnows can't do anything about it.
Thank you @beverlyjoe! :) ... and only thing we can do is pay attention to the witnesses, and find the ones that think like us ;)
As a witness and bots owner I can just say it's neither:)
In its current form there is no social component involved to interact on a deeper basis, for that we still need other platforms. Currently it is more an early stage blogging platform without the audience. No one is reading anything, most posts are thrown and written into the storm. Just a lucky few get some kind of readership bring it already with them. Most here want to Farm. And for that you need bots and steemcleaners to cut out the bad ones. And dear god, there are bad ones. My bots are a honeypot for them. That's why I introduced a spam tax. Or farm toll. You can do it, but you have to pay a price.
Thank you for taking the time to reply. I wish more witnesses and bot owners would weigh in. I don't fully comprehend your answer because I don't understand what you mean by "farm"... Can you explain?
I also would like to ask you what you think about my proposal to eliminate the misleading practice of saying "congratulations you received an upvote blah blah blah" and instead replacing it with the actual return based on an actual price of steem? I don't know what bot you own, but to me would stop a lot of people from gambling if they knew what they were losing.
Thank you for responding. I respect anyone that takes the time to give their point of view (even if I don't agree with it).
Interesting post. Well to me, i think we all should look at steemit as a social media platform where we come, make friends, share our tought and ideas and then see the area of make of making steem as a bonus for our efforts.
My tought though
I'm with you completely @maxijgcomm! :)
I've just learned to stay off the Trending page, haha, but you make great points about where the $$ is going, since the actual communities of real people aren't raking in those kinds of rewards. I hope you get a response from some of the whales and witnesses!
thanks @mtnmeadowmomma! And I got one response from @steemcommunity's partner @abh12345... I know one witness I am happy I voted for ;)
I agree the steembottrackers website needs an overhaul...
The fixed return bots that are pretending to be auction bots need to be removed from the auction part and shoved to the bottom... you know where the fixed upvote services are.
@Tipu and @sleeplesswhale should be listed as auction bots....
If
@foxyd
@whalebuilder
@emperorofnaps
@onlyprofitbot
can all be listed as auction bots yet none give more than 1.7 fixed return
Don't expect them to change anything... they make to much money from the lie that you need to buy more advertising to get more views
You should skip postpromoter too... they fix your return and that isn't an auction either...
Yeah, I gave up on steembottrackers shortly after looking at it.
It's a good place to start with info about where to go look for upvote services... Definitely have to research the bots you use though...
That was the trouble. It was taking too long for me to figure them out and then I realized that my time is better spent elsewhere. Like playing red dot with the cats, or maybe learning math.
Looking forward to your upcoming series of @royalbotreview! You have quite a few things figured out!
Bots are ruining everything, even witnesses now start to became bots, are they witnesses after that ? Such people all they care about is themselfs, they are even ready to share 90% of their earning or more to delegators and they keep ruining it. We don't have to delegate to them or use them, we are killing ourselfs softly that way and killing steemit as well.
I'm hoping that they are just killing themselves... while we wait patiently, establish connections and wait for the price to drop enough that some investors with a better vision for a future can step in! So killing themselves yes, but hopefully steemit survives long past them!
I also have a paid service for steemian but I am trying to give people interest from their investment, so if they pay 0.1 they get about 0.3 upvote, so even if they post with the option of 50/50 they will earn about 0.15 back, so those 0.05 is their interest so he want to make 3x to make people happy. It's really hard to grow naturally for some people here. But the bots give 2x and sometimes even more and they upvote depend on how much someone pay, so if someone pay 10 steem he get about 20 if he paid more than others but usually that is not happening and a lot of people now are using bots, so you give them about 10 steem and they upvote you about 17 upvote and in return if you are posting with 50/50 you get even less steem than you give. The problem of people that when they see the upvote $17 they think that they are earning $7. that is really funny.
I am gathering now more minnows to help me change the system, I hope you will read this and tell me your opinion and if you want to join us, you are welcome, I need more partners to make the change and to help people not to lose their money with bots, we have also a big facebook group where we share their posts and they also resteem each other and I control all the post and I accept just the quality one and even comments there are turned off to avoid the spam. Here is the system that I am talking about, I hope you will tell me your opinion about that because I also need feedback and if you have propositions I'll think about it : Our Partnership program.
I think I fully support you if I read it correctly... Are you saying that you are giving us minnows a 3x upvote on our sbd? In other words, if I send you $0.10 in sbd, your service will upvote $0.30?
If that is the case, just tell me how much business you want... I can fill every vote you have with my friends!
yes it's the case, and we have a big group in facebook where I let paid members resteem each other and I control all that all the day. So peolpe are not just getting 3x, but they also resteem each other and if they want, they can be resteemed by me and the team. Not every partner have to resteem. Partners have just to give manual upvotes or delegate power.
We are also minnows gathering together and building a big whale that contain a lot of minnows. I think if we gather that way all the minnows together, we can eaven beat any whale we want, in good terms I mean. ☺
So true!! Excellentcellent article!! Steemit is a game for me too..a game with bots haha.. I can totally relate! Resteemed!!
Thank you @grayarty! :)
I have to agree with you Dave, the BOT'S are taking over and it seems like there's no end of new ones. I get very frustrated with nobody looking at my content even though it is hand produced. The content curation groups are great but some massive changes will be needed to stamp out what's happening.
I also play with BOTS solely to raise my reputation but if tomorrow they were all banned and gone I would cheer.
I'm in complete agreement with you @slobberchops! If they were gone tomorrow, I would be happy... But if they are going to be how to pick up steem and gain power here, then I think many will continue to figure out how to best game the system. Its just human nature!
I think it will change as more like us grow up, so I'm not upset... Just making an observation!
Interesting article, I'm going to check out some of your links as a new investor and fan of Steem. I understand the boys but think whales and bots are a little unfair
thank you very much @crypticat! And in my opinion, it is neither fair or unfair, it is just a mismatch to what most people think this place should be. IE.. if the people that own it want it to be a bot gaming place, then they will get what they want (which imo will be worth much less than a facebook replacement) ;)
as newbie. in the beginning am not going to use bots am better etc.
but now am testing it 2 to see how it work.
one is a curation bot. its a nice on no spamming and is not a upvoting. am just renting my SP to it.
but the 2 one a hate ist commenting on my comment..plz make it stop lol...but in 10 days its gone am not paying one more time for sure. but a feel bad was in the trending yestday. and the user of one post had pain over 100sp make no sens. am going to stay away from ther.
just in a week or so its a lot post on this and most of them are working on something to chance the system and calling out witness etc.
yes you will find that as you get involved with them, it gets even more absurd... some of the bots have all kinds of gimmicks... and the users are also pretty crazy sometimes.. That is the point, a lot of time gets wasted to figure it out.. but until the way the rewards change, it does pay to use the bots if you do it right... to me they should use a larger portion of their money and support the community groups that encourage engagement!
ye the one a had pay on a ended my subscription before the time its so awkward to get the comments. a dont se any point but a think is inporten to test it to understand how it works.
I got discouraged after seeing the lack of rewards for the amount of work put in. I then started messing with the bots, but then I didn't have time to mess around and read posts, comment, etc...
So I said "screw it" and decided to enjoy it for what it is. I just won't invest any of my personal money in it. I was really considering it, but now I think it would be foolish until it all gets sorted out.
I realized that there are a lot of good people here, and I'll just do like I do in my regular life and not give time to assholes. I hope it works as well as it does at my job.
If you're trying to write on steemit then economically it's a waste of time if you have better things to do and are from somewhere where you can command high wages in your spare time unless you have patronage or matronage from someone with a big stack. Writing specifically for and tagging posts for certain communities that have some heft to their upvotes is worthwhile sometimes, as is creating content for some of the platforms with large delegations. Unfortunately none of the author-focused groups have any steem inc delegations.
Yes, but I love to write and I am under a blanket of snow still, so I have some time before gardening weather is here. I also have become quite fond of a few people here, so it's not a waste of time like Reddit.
I will just keep plugging away until I feel that I am not wanted around anymore.
Nah, imo there is a lot of useful knowledge-sharing going on on reddit, even if every other post is an ad.
Oh for sure there is. In certain subs. My problem is that I just waste too much time filtering through everything. There's also a lot of trolling, I find.
I completely understand your sentiment and think many are like you... While they don't want to admit it, it is definitely a better use of time to figure out the bots than to try to create real value here. I hope it changes and that is the point of the article.. I personally would much rather have people just being social and supporting each other and good content... but until the whales/witnesses look at it properly, then I think you are doing what they are incentivizing you to do!
It's interesting to see how often the number "Votes" exceeds the number of "Views" which clearly indicates things are being upvoted without even being read.
that is a fact @sparkesy43... I am actually excited about the state of affairs though... It means we are all here very early and we have a chance to make something meaningful happen together!
Very true. How active members react will ultimately shape the future of this platform
Sounds a bit like asking the government to do something they know will work against their own pocket, asking those who profit to give up their profit. With 15 of the top twenty owning bots, It would appear they profit from others use of the bot.
I am not asking them @jan23com! I am saying that they will reap what they sow. If the want a game that will die out as people realize it is just a bot game, instead of a social network replacement; then milking the system through the use of the bots make sense. If they think they can have them both, then they are deluded!
And yes, the govt will never work against their own pocket... neither will the whales... the question is do they understand what is good for their pocket or not?
Honestly, I think it drives them harder to get the most they can before the pool dries up
that thought has crossed my mind too... I kinda see that also in how it trades too.. Almost afraid to let it fall too fast ;)
Hey @davemccoy, totally agree with you on this! I myself didn't use many bots to upvote post. I use one to try it out and experience it. I can totally feel the pain of having a good content and didn't get much attention from the community and earning very less unless you have a local community to support each other.
Some upvote bots use the fund for fun projects which is good I think. Some just purely earn money from authors. I personally think renting SP to manual curator is a good idea to them to support top quality authors and reward them.
Hey @williamsyee! Always good to see you :) ... and my point is that they will get what they incentivize and encourage with the rules. There are many great ways to use this system, and your way is perfect... I'm trying to get them to think about sponsoring someone like you that is focused on "building quality or quantity" and seeing if they can get a few little centers of support set up to organically support people.
That was a very heartfelt post Mr. Dave.
I couldn't agree more. The main question is how remove bots from a system where they already exist.
Thanks @doctorcrypto (minter of the newbie nickel) ;) ... I don't think they can be removed. I do think they can make it more transparent and also spend a little less of their delegated sp on making a profit and instead build the communities instead. (if they want a social network that can survive)
I avoid bots at all cost. The answer is simple: if everyone does the same they will soon disappear. Unfortunately the whales empower the bots because they make good money from them. I'm bordering on powering down because I can see the way this place is heading! It's going to sink eventually in a slew of its own shitposts and not central but not before those at the top have creamed off great profits.
Bots are only worthwhile if you're really good at creating material tailor-made to get some votes from whales, and you invest enough to make sure it stays on the hot page for long enough to be seen by them. It's a big investment and gamble, and it's better to establish ties first before making such a move. But the fact that all of that has to be done in the first place just goes to show that content discovery mechanisms on this site are really awful.
Oh, and many, many whales have already skimmed and sold enough to retire in this price move and the first price move steem ever had. This one is just unique in the explosive power of SBD's rise which changed things up a bit.
thanks for some more color on this @charitybot! I agree... there was a mania into crypto which made everyone go crazy... so now the good thing is the system can reset itself!
yes that is exactly true, the whales give their steem power to the bots and make very good money on it... I also agree with part of your conclusion, it will go down in price to correct the abuse because the system as is now is unsustainable. However if it drops low enough, then it will reset and people like me will come in with money and take them out... In other words, it may get worse before it gets better... but imo, I am happy about the reset... The faster it happens, the better it will be for all of us! So don't get upset with the low price, it is actually only hurting the whales! ;)
Steemit is indeed a video game, and I have seen it like this from the get go, and yes the bots are playing a more and more important role on steemit, and in today's society too.
But steemit is not just a game of bots, it's a game of skills, it's a social game as well, it's a game of power the longer you last in it.
All of these game mechanics are blended together, in what could look from afar like a cult, and I think that's why people "churn", because it freaks them out. You get sucked in the steemit world , hoping for a better tomorrow , it's like investing in a company, which we are all doing.
I like the idea of more transparency, very nice :) but look at the people in power in this world, and you'll see no transparency.
The more power you get the less transparent you become.
thank you for your analysis @edprivat... I completely agree. And good point about transparency and power, its very very true!
Pleasure, you've raised good questions in your article @davemccoy
Thank you @edprivat... That is a nice complement! :) Cheers!
I have the same question my friend. What is steemit? Social media platform or Bot gaming business. Thanks for your post.
We will eventually find out! I plan on asking many, so if you hear anything too please let me know!
You're absolutely right my friend, but we can not stop them. They are already here and will always be here. Let's just continue doing what we think is just. God bless you!
Thanks @asbonclz! I agree with you about stopping them, to me its a matter of putting it in the proper perspective! And thanks for the encouragement and I got your friend request on discord today! Contact me anytime if I can help you :)
Yes, I added you in discord because I want to reach out to you :) Thanks for accepting.
Thanks for this post! We (but mostly the whales and top witnesses) need to fix the system, and fix it fast. Resteemed your post for additional visibility.
thank you @sco... They have the money, we have the voice. It will be interesting to see if they ever listen. ;)
There are already many bots here on the way. Do not even know how many of my followers are real and how many only robots. Some bots are not bad, but it just takes over.
I agree completely... Bots by themselves are fine... Its what they are trying to automate that will make the difference.
totes a bot gaming system but hey dont be mad at them learn to play the game no reason why it should hold anyone back
I'm not mad... I'm just saying they will get what they want... a bot gaming system and not a social network... maybe that was the plan all along!
Great post. I totally agree that it's time for us to really figure out what we want to do here. The crypto prices are down and need to consolidate and so do we.
thank you @buggedout... I am with you 100%... It will happen, if not now.. .then when prices drop further... I must admit I wouldn't mind getting paid with $0.16 steem myself ;)
Great post, @davemccoy
I admire you address them so openly.
I completely agree, but it’s like been said in the comments over and over again: I’m afraid the people who should read this are not going to, because they’re too busy fillibg tgeir pockets.
I think even Gina was offended, because she didn’t warn me about this post. Hard to believe it was ‘by accident’ ;0)
thank you @simplymike! I am happy to hear you like it, your opinion always matters to me!
and yes those people won't hear it, but I'm focused on the next batch of people that take charge when the system resets... (it gets much easier if steem gets sub $1) ;)
haha... yes Gina is tough sometimes.... you better be nice to her! :D
As they say, bots are here to stay. You know how I feel about the paid upvote bots. I'm glad I didn't know about them before I joined, otherwise, it would be a turn off. So now I'm still here despite these and just focus on the good people and communities :)
Would be interesting to see witnesses and bot owners respond to your post. After all, they have the bigger influence and investment in this platform. Also looking forward to the witness interviews. I really need to review my votes (when I started I'm guilty of voting without thoroughly reviewing the witnesses' projects) because they have a big say in the future of Steem (which means our future too).
It seems like a lot of us would like to hear from the witnesses... it is nice to know that we had at least one @steemcommunity (which is @abh12345 and @paulag)... so we have one we can support and I'm sure we can find 30 if we work hard enough ;)
Yes and it would take research. I may have to remove some of my votes because I didn't really check on some when I started. I hope they don't take it personally though. I'm afraid of retaliation flags. But I'm small and doesn't really have an effect on them.
They won't retaliate on you for removing your vote... Now if you leave a nasty message on their page it might be a different story ;) ... Seriously no worries, you can change them at will anytime!
Yeah that should be the case. I'm just worried about flags. Like it's also something subjective. I have seen someone flag someone else (and all posts pending for pay out) because they disagreed on something and that was about bots. So I have these fears. It's a promising platform but scary at the same time.
Great article @davemccoy alhough it leaves me feeling somewhat depressed.
I hope you can get some of the witnesses into your interviews who don't share your views. It's much easier to find out what the "good" guys think but I'd like to hear how those that are making all the money have to say, especially those who say they support community but never actually involve themselves in it. Mind you it's unlikely they will be bothered enough to be interviewed.
I'm still not sure how I fee about it all really. At the moment I am in @abh12345's leagues and posting and interacting. I'm not self voting or using bots but, hand on heart, it's not because I think those things are "wrong".
I can see both sides of the argument and probably sit somewhere in the middle.
When I first joined I thought I was joining a social platform where the vast majority play a fair game but I saw very quickly that Steemit reflects the world out there - most of the power and wealth is held by the few.
I found that disappointing but have, for the most part, moved on.
I suppose I'm just not sure what the hell I'm doing here and that too reflects to world out there. There's no escaping ourselves is there? 😊
Hey Gillian, don't be depressed... It is just the way it is... for now.
If we want to do something about it, the best thing we can do is use our voices and pick witnesses like @steemcommunity that will stand up and try to make a differrence!
On the bright side, the more they stay on the course they are, the better it will be for people like us to gain on the others. So just keep doing what you are doing and I think you are going to be very well rewarded at some point in the distant future! :)
I'm not really depressed @davemccoy. It's a bit of a knee jerk reaction of mine when I read about this aspect of Steemit. I should probably stop commenting in such a way. Or at lease wait a bit until the intial reaction has passed! 😁
I added @steemcommunity as one of my witnesses as soon as I read the post.
I hope your prediction about future rewards come true but as long as I'm having fun, which is more often than not, I shall be keeping on keeping on. 😍
The problem is that I don't think we'll ever get rid of bots. I think it one of the few things that are driving the demand of sbd. Look i understand that steemit will get new users but if they don't buy any steem the price of steem won't increase. But bid bots do provide a type of advertisement that capitalizes on the exposure of new people. Right now 90% of all stemains are blogger themselves, we need a reader audience as well.
Second when we get a lot of humans in they'll need to have a steempower to be worth anything. How will they counter the bots will be interesting. In fact I think bots well thrive even more in the hivemind community feature in steemit. Now instead of using bots to fight to get on top of the hot and trending page, they just use the bots on the community hot and trading page. Make bots even more useful.
Just my food for thought, I could be wrong :)
Interesting view @sames :) ... thanks for sharing it and I will put that in my mind and think it through! ps... did you decide if you were going to hire that programmer?
Personally I choose very rarely to use bots, I used to try and realised it was just a losing money game. Unless you are going to do a series of posts and use them for trending purposes strictly for the views in the hopes of people to follow future posts, is when I would personally feel it would be a good benefit to use them. Its such a shame that we have this facility for trending but after some of the poor posts ive seen I just see it all as bad, it encourages people to think they can follow suit and also produce bad content. Saying that in turn if the bot owners follow suit of the likes of @sneaky-ninja, then this could be a positive impact for the whole platform.
Thank you for your comments @crazybgadventure... I am not as much complaining, as I am trying to point out that they will get the behavior they incentivize. And yes the owners themselves could start with more transparency and that would help people to even understand the economics.
Great thought of you Mr. @davemccoy. Thumb up.
In my saying : Buying vote is decrease posting quality slowly but sure, in adding.
thank you @rikaz87 :) ... and I agree with your statement very much!
Definitely a well written post. Not hackish one bit.
Congratulations you have been resteemed as part of #newbieresteemday's top posts for the day! We invite you to use our tag to connect with more of our members. To learn more: Come Join Us!!! (Newbie Resteem Initiative)
thank you so much @newbieresteemday! I'm so glad that I graduated from your school and I am no longer hackish! ;)
This seems to be a rhetorical question. If you want to earn money, this is a game. If you just want to socialize without money, then you can have lots of fun. Of course without earning anything 😥
that is my point exactly crypto... if it is money you seek, then using the bots is the answer... they pay far more than any social interactions.
But for some people the bots don't bring any return. Mainly because they don't understand how it works. And the keep sending bits when the bid round is already full and giving a loss.
that is exactly correct... that's how they feed themselves, from those mistakes... I also think most don't know about how the vote values differ from the market prices and this creates some better times than other for most.
Well I for one am happy the Pope announced last week there is no hell, 'cause I'd surely be there. I've used bots twice this past week! And like you say it was because I thought I had something of quality to post and I was getting poor traction, thus bots. However, I do agree with you. I looked at who was commenting here and they all had something pertinent to contribute and they all seem to be in it for the long haul. That's what is "supposed" to happen here. Don't you think? Peace.
I agree.. that is why I am so excited... we may be a small group of dedicated people, but we are growing and getting stronger by the day. In fact, my post wasn't a complaint, it was merely pointing out how I think the owners should be looking at it. If they want us to game the bots to gain power, then fine with me. ;)
And I'm glad you aren't going to hell too! lol
Right now it is a bot gaming system, and it is easy to see. All one has to do is go and look at the trending tab for #introduceyourself. If you do you will see lots of similar post, with some pretty hefty rewards, which we know just does not really happen, unless you come here with a large following. So yep it is a bot gaming system. One that I will only play when calling bots to plagiaristic, scam, or phishing post/comments. So currently I call on two bots, on group of people, and one person, when I see a fishy post/comment. Other than that, no bot usage for me, because I think I work pretty hard for the few rewards I make, and I am not going to give them any of it.
Also, I have recently seen that there is another "Bank" on steemit - - - I would like people to remember and recall the issues with BellyRub bank. That incident a whale, (which I thought he should not have done), bailed people out. This is a buyer beware warning.
I have seen the "Bank" too @bashadow. What is that all about? He just kinda popped out of nowhere. Personally, I don't have an issue with how people handle 'business' on here as long as they are not hurting others. The banks out there are mimicing the real world and how can it not when steemit is a reflection of the good/bad in the real world. You can't create a society without having both aspects, and just as in life, there are dragons and dragon slayers. We just hope to keep the dragons from overpopulating. ;)
At least the "Bank" is forthright with his intentions and those that sign the life debt are doing so with their own free will.
I have not even bothered looking at the "new Bank", A lot of people fell for the Belly Rub bank scheme, because of the interest rate, they were greedy people, then cried and cried about being ripped off when he took the money and ran. It was a mess, one guy (a Whale) got tired of hearing about all the bitching about how could steemit let this happen, it was not steemit that let it happen it was the idiots that saw dollar signs in front of their eyes. Banks are no one's friend.
Always good to hear your thought @bashadow.. and I agree too. I am hoping to elevate the conversation by pointing it out so that they can see that "we see the truth".
And yes I saw that about the bank.. and I agree with you about staying very clear of it. People will get burned if they don't do proper due diligence! Have a great weekend my friend!
You too, were you here fro the end fiasco of the bellyrub bank issue or fortunate enough to miss that? I can't believe people, smart people, fell for it. there was just no way anyone was really going to pay a 40% interest rate.
I missed it, but heard about it. I didn't know the specifics, but yes a 40% interest rate sends off a few ponzi bells. Wow, that is something that people fell for that.
Great post. Resteemed!
I follow you!
Thank you very much @marcodobrovich. It is nice of you to stop by and tell me, and I appreciate knowing you liked it! I follow you now too :)
😉
good catch on the spelling.. but on my post, I don't mind one bit... Spelling was never my favorite subject ;)
I have made a decision not to vote for posts that use bots, (sorry to the good post writers that feel they should use them).
I think the whales and witnesses that run the bots are shitting where they eat. (Excuse my expression) but where do they think this will bring their cash cow in the end.
Maybe they want steem to end up as just a group of circle jerking bot. I don't, and with my small vote or lack there of I can try to steer it in another direction.
I understand the reference and would've made the point myself if I had thought of it... lol
Its true... And they are like the boss, they can do it... Just not sure it is the wisest thing they can do! ;)
And hahaha on the group circle jerking bot... it does feel that is where this is heading sometimes :D
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