Why do 5 of the Top 20 Witnesses have less Hive Power than Me?

in #witnesses3 years ago (edited)

I'm just an ordinary bloke from a working class background that's invested in Hive over the last nearly four years because I believe in decentralised social media.

I like the fact that rather than one central authority controlling the servers ('nodes') that keep Hive functioning we have over a hundred servers on a 'blockchain' that run Hive in consensus.

The Top 20 Witnesses take on the bulk of the work and eah one confirms ONE BLOCK of data once a minute on average (roughly) -it's quite easy to work out as we have 3 second blocks on Hive.

Each of the T20 witnesses earns around 10K Hive a month, or 120K Hive a year, and given that Hive's been around for a year, that's around the amount they've earned since Hive's creation. The stats below are from @dalz - here.

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In fact MOST of these T20 witnesses have been T20 for longer than a year, many have been T20 from at least near the very beginning of that pre-Hive blockchain, so would have earned hundreds of thousands of dollars in block rewards, but at the very least 120K Hive or around $70K for the last year at current prices is a minimum.

Since these T20 Witnesses are the guys who secure the network they are pretty crucial, so I don't mind them getting a decent pay-out, but I also kind of expect some of that Hive to get re-invested - it's like putting your money where your node is, betting on the network you secure to be successful by powering up, and by powering up also better protecting that network from another take over.

When I see a high earning T20 witness on constant PD, selling the bulk of their Hive earnings, I see it the same as an executive selling all their share options in their company - personally I'd have more trust in a witness/ executive who had a larger exposure to their own product.

It's pretty basic really.

I recently unvoted ALL T20 witnesses who have less stake than me

With the T20 witnesses having earned SO MUCH HIVE over the last year or four I've simply trawled through and unvoted all of those who I had voted for who have less Hive Power than me - because I'm just an ordinary bloke with much lower earnings.

There is simply no way I'm putting my faith in a witness who is less committed to Hive than I am.

This is why All the T20 Witnesses I vote for have more Hive Power than I Do. NB some of them may appear to have low HP on their personal accounts but have significant amounts delegated or Powered Up to their projects - like @pharesim with @curangel for example.

I also made an exception for PeakD as I like that application, it is so fundamental to Hive atm unless/ until we move away from the main chain being a blogging thing.

I'm not going to name those I unvoted as it's easy enough to track through the witnesses here and find out who has been selling in droves.

Am I being unreasonable?

Maybe it costs $60K a year to run a node, I don't know, maybe it takes THAT MUCH technical knowledge to be a top witness?

NB I don't generally vote for people who I see selling ALL their Hive or LEO, so I do apply this principle to all actors.

Or is my 72K HP minimum requirement too low for a witness?

Oh I'm aware I'm being a little crude just using raw HP as a measure, because some witnesses would have ninja mined that, but honestly, most of them have had enough time to Power Up significant stakes even without that.

And the rest of my witnesses?

Given that all witnesses outside of the T20 earn significantly less I'm happy to leave my votes on most of them, although I did just unvote one as i noticed TOO MUCH selling going on.

Final Thoughts

Of course every actor on Hive is free to do what they want with their stake, but I just have a higher level of expectation from the higher earners - I expect a certain level of Vest in the product you're helping to power, otherwise I won't support you, doing so just undermines my investment if all you are doing is selling off the 120K Hive you earn every year.

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@hextech ( a witness group consisting of myself, @rishi556 & @edicted ) run a witness node currently just verifying blocks and iirc costs about $50/mo.
We're currently talking about purchasing a server and upgrading our node to a fullnode, which will run about $100/month. So the cost is definitely within range for smaller groups to get going in the space, the main roadblock for most is the getting the votes to hit top 20, a small group of sorts controls access to the top tiers.. Below the top 20, the returns are much more limited... Maybe it's time to propose a more distributed type of access... Maybe splitting it from top 20 as main producers, to say... Top 40-60... 20 is a small centralized number imo...
And that's without even touching on some other concerns others have brought up about groups of witnesses being on a smaller number of data centers.. lending to a more centralized and vulnerable hive then we are led to believe..

There is a lot of work to be done on hive that's for sure.

And don't get me started on the bad name selection... Hive blockchain group being a stock traded company, hive the database which is an apache group project and a host of others with the same name... Hive. Which all combined isn't doing us any favors as far as being findable outside of direct linking. As word of mouth marketing is unreliable with our chosen name... * * Shrugs * * I love our home here, but we definitely need to improve our methods.

run a witness node currently just verifying blocks and iirc costs about $50/mo.

We do multiple things on that same server so truly the cost is lower than that. But we are a lower ranking witness and we don't produce blocks as often and so we don't need a more dedicated machine, nor do we have a backup machine in case our main goes down(which has happened a total of 3 times, two of which I caught before we missed any blocks, and one which I wasn't able to catch before we missed). At a higher rank we'd want at least 2 nodes so if one goes down, we can still get up and running by switching to the other one.

At the current prices, a lot of witnesses can break even if they are running a single node and are paying around $50/month for it. At lower prices they can't. Privex has some cheaper managed ones so if they are on one of those, current rank 90ish people can break even.

But a lot of witnesses provide critical services to Hive which has costs associated with it and needs to be considered. BT and his team are the main dev team for Hive right now. No way witness earnings pays for an entire team plus api.hive.blog which is probably the most used node(since its default, and iirc has the best latency to the US) is a multi node cluster and thats not going to be cheap either. We also have other witnesses with RPC's like @deathwing and @coff33a and @drakos providing nodes even though they aren't in the top 20(though when I checked yesterday drakos' node wasn't working). Thats another cost to consider. This doesn't account for more services developed by other witnesses(ex giftgiver from me/@hextech).

Splitting to more top witnesses I think would be nice, but a conversation for another time. Requires more coordination for HFs and I don't think Hive has enough users to justify that right now.

As for the name, let's just be the best Hive so when people think of it, this is their first though.

Thanks for the insight, very much appreciated!

It'd be nice to get cost breakdowns from witnesses!

But the other stuff they all do (i've got a pretty good handle on how does what, i know BT is a league apart) should be separate?

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I mean, for some witnesses where their only source of income is witness earnings, I can see why they powerdown and sell to fund what they do.

Running a witness is hardly a full time job though is it?!?

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Nope, but let’s take a witness ranked around 50 for example. Currently they are getting about 20 Hive a day. Let’s imagine they can liquidate at $0.5 per hive immediately. That’s just $10/day. Doesn’t really cover much, especially if they’ve developed useful tools for Hive. The amount for top 20 is definitely higher, but a few of them being enough value with what they do over how much they earn(definitely not saying all, as we’ve got inactive witnesses even in the top 20).

Ah I wasn't talking about those outside the T20, I know the earnings don't covers costs down there.

And of course anyone can do what they want with their stake, I'm just more inclined to vote someone who re-invests and shows a bit of co-operate spirit!

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I bet at one point Windows was a terrible name because how are people going to know the difference between the operating system and physical windows in their house? Personally I like the name Hive and I think it meshes well with the actual technology of Graphene and such.

At the end of the day we keep proposing these sweeping changes without looking at the more obvious gradual solution. Sliding-scale governance votes. We need to stop asking the binary questions like 13 week powerdown vs 4; 20 witnesses or 40; 1 backup witness or 5. The future of these governance issues is actually being about to vote on them over a given timeframe and move the numbers little by little until we figure out where the network actually wants to be without making a hasty decision.

Thanks for the details on the finances, sounds like you're doing great work!

And I agree there is a lot of potential improvements to me made towards real decentralisation.

TBH It's a miracle this chain works at all!

I've written a lengthy reply to a question under quochuy's weekly witness report. I'll quote some parts of it and try to elaborate.

... This does not mean someone in the Top 20 witness is swimming in money in most cases (arguably). They might be spending thousands of USD every month just to provide services for Hive users. (@blocktrades, for example, api.hive.blog is a cluster of hived and hivemind nodes, that is not cheap to do. Not to mention actual core development work without any DHF proposal whatsoever.) This does not necessarily mean that blocktrades is a philanthropist. He just believes in the ecosystem and wants to contribute, paying out of his own pocket if need be or barely breaking even with witness income. If Hive was $5-10 USD, his and his team's work would pay off greatly.

Personally, I have been a witness for more than a year at this point, majority of the time I was a witness, Hive was averaging at about $0.12 per Hive. I was ranked ~60-80 during the year 2020. So when you consider my income, I was not breaking even at all and was paying out of pocket each month. I currently run several different services on Hive (one of them being api.deathwing.me, one of the most used nodes.) that require beefy servers that cost a lot of money per month to run. Thankfully, as of writing this post, I am witness rank 34 on the blockchain. If you look at my account history, you can observe that I haven't powered down once just until a month ago, and still, I only power down enough to cover costs for running my on-chain services.

Quite a few of the witnesses in the top 20 are "project accounts" (i.e. @steempress, @ocd-witness, @peakd etc.) as well. (Who powerdown and powerup their main accounts).

That aside, it's hard to pinpoint the expenses of witnesses. Some might be spending more than others while some spend less. Some might have projects that require constant upgrades/additional servers and/or funding to pay for services/employees etc. Or simply, they are simply paying "themselves" for their work. An example, developers. The current powering down spree might be due to a similar thing. When Hive's price was quite low, it is possible that some people had to forego any profits if not paying out of pocket.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I do encourage everyone to run a witness node. Not for profits, but for the chain's stability. As well as encouraging anyone who have the ability to do so, to run a full node. Currently, there are only 8 stable full nodes. (Beacon) The more would always be best. Different locations, different countries, different machines, different operators. Always good for decentralization. Not to mention lowering load per node, potentially making everything faster as opposed to thousands of people (lets not forget bots) using the same node.

The crypto world has a beautiful acronym. DYOR. Do Your Own Research. It would be quite good if rather than proxying to various accounts and leaving it be, everyone actually invested some time and researched witnesses and see what they're doing to contribute to the chain and alter their votes accordingly.

I suspect it does qualify me as a philanthropist. It was always one of my long term goals, and I finally made it.

And that sexy philanthropist voice in the weekly updates! Don't forget about that ^>^

To be honest, I would never characterize the sound of my voice that way. I'm always vaguely annoyed with it when I hear it recorded, but I'll take the compliment anyways :-)

Nah, you sound great, good speaker voice. I used to have to listen to calls with my supervisor when I worked at a call center,.. and I would always think I sounded wayyyyyy more nasal then I ever imagined.

i hear what you're saying about costs and totally understand that, but i just find it odd that Witnesses wouldn't 'back' the project that pays their wages with a bit more of their capital!

Unless the 5 T20 with relatively low HP are poor, which I doubt!

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It is quite surprising to be honest. It is also important to bring to people's notice as some may not see how it makes users less confident about the value of hive if witnesses refuse to hold their fair share.

We should all hold a bit more to be honest, and I'll try my best to take my own advice

I'm probably being a bit crude, but given the amount the earn I think it's fair enough to expect a decent sized stake!

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stake is an important factor, but also would expect T20 witnesses running a full public api node. Node scarcity was worse in earlier times, but it still is important to have a broad choice of public api nodes.

Yes that's a crucial factor too!

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I proxied my votes to Leo a long time ago and I honestly don't keep up on the witness stuff as much as I should. That is really too bad that so much powering down is happening. I guess if they are developing something they might have a team that they need to pay, but just letting a server run in the background and applying an update whenever a hardfork or softfork happens seems like they are just milking the system.

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I'm not sure who leofinance vote for TBH!

They really should be T20.

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What should matter the most about the witness is not the amount of money they have in the game but how much they're contributing. If they're wasting countless hours per day developing Hive and then decide to sell all the Hive they earn, there must be an exterior reason for that.
We have to separate the artist from the art, if they're pumping out great projects and developing this blockchain that should matter a lot more than what they decide to do with the money they earn from it. Maybe they prefer to use that money to diversify their investments since they're already investing their most valuable resource (Time) into Hive.

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But surely if you think the project you're developing has got legs, the most rational thing to do is reinvest them money you earn from your time back in?

Many of them do pump out great projects AND power them up!

I think all i've done TBH is unvote a few lazy people!

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I assume they all have costs to cover and maybe powering down is the only option for some. I pick my witnesses for the good I see them doing for Hive. I don't judge people generally for powering down if they also do some good.

Yes I also vote on contribution, but I think if I'm powering up and keeping most of my Hive powered up I just apply the same standards to others!

Some of these witnesses have sold off hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of Steem and Hive over the years. I kind of expect more of a long term view from them!

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You have the right to remove your votes. And you’ve communicated your reasoning clearly and professionally so thank you for that as well. I feel a lot of emotion from your post. It maybe helpful if witnesses were present to speak to some of their costs. This is, of course, an open platform. Investors are going to want to know what’s going on with their money. And like you they may act accordingly.

I don't think keeping half, or even 20% of what you earn powered up is much to ask, honestly!

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I normally hear this type of response before a meeting. The information relayed during discussions normally alleys people’s concerns. The value you mentioned doesn’t seem a lot to keep powered up, however.

Most of the time perception is king. The appearance that witnesses aren’t investing their earnings on the project they build isn’t favorable. However we don’t know their side yet if ever.

Fair enough. A lot of the witnesses don't post much, so we don't know their motivations. Support those you think deserve it.

Am I being unreasonable?

I don't think so. You've got me curious now. I'll have to take a look and see who you no longer vote for. 😊

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There were a couple of people in there i actually quite like, but a rule is a rule.

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Not uneasonable at all to use that as a criteria to vote for a witness, though personally I wouldn't use that as the only criteria. But that's me. We all have our preferences and thats what matters

I think if you used it as your only criteria you wouldn't use all yer votes!

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Maybe it costs $60K a year to run a node, I don't know, maybe it takes THAT MUCH technical knowledge to be a top witness?

definitely less!

T20 shall definitely keep over 100k powered up, this is my view also.

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I had a feeling it was a LOT less than $60K!

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Well, a good server is max €200/month, with a backup €400 and this is real expensive. :)

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One of the solutions (the best one?), is more competition and free market. We need more people running witness nodes and dedication. I hear hive node is not as expensive these days.

Why dont you start a witness?

Why don't I start a witness?

I honestly don't know - it's never occurred to me, not really my speciality!

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People can help you with the setup ... easy :)

How could you set one up?

@rishi556 wrote a good guide for setting up a witness node a couple months ago iirc @scholaris

Thanks! I look forward to reading it!

I dont know, but I can say to you to ask some of the other witness like gerber, or raymond for bro, or the rishi post above :)

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I did thank you! Rishi has a great discussion about it and Ervin-Lemark is also documenting his pursuit as a witness.

You are reasonable.

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Keep up man! I will do the same thing - powering up :D

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Well then... I had no clue to even question something like that, but it makes all the sense in the world! I feel exactly the same way now, and I'm going to check who has my votes at the moment. Thanks a lot for bringing this to my attention. :)

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