Clarification and Questions Answered about My Proposal in Response to a Post by Belemo

in #hive4 years ago (edited)


This is a response to Belemo’s Post asking for truth.

*All rewards will be burned

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image source


Hey Guys, Since I posted my proposal the other day I have had a lot of questions. But more than that, I have heard a lot of accusations... some stranger than others. Including that I apparently am saying the community doesn’t matter, which is insane to me.

I’ve thought about writing something, to clarify more.. as clearly my words or description of work left additional questions. Or perhaps the additional, non factual, narratives being spread around are causing confusion.

So when I was tagged in Belemo’s post (with Covid no less), I had prepared myself for just more insanity. But his post was actually asking questions, not just throwing out a narrative, which I very much respect. (Thank you for not only asking the questions @belemo, but for being willing to have a discussion about it as well. Thanks for starting the conversation).

I tried to go through each question as well as take the opportunity to explain a few things or correct some things I had been hearing ... and felt perhaps others had some of the same questions as well, so I wanted to share them here.

His post can be see here: https://hive.blog/hive/@belemo/covid-19-and-the-hive-proposal-what-is-the-truth


My response:

“Hey there Belemo, hope you’re well. I’ll try to answer these the best I can even though I’m a bit confused how anything about my proposal could cause hurt and outrage.

The first time I saw Justine was on Steem where I figured she was either some whale or big shot because her posts got a lot of upvotes and engagement. then I ran into her Twitter and noticed she was also getting a lot of attention there from people outside of the Steem community. I put two and two together and realised she was a big deal.

I actually know you from the comedy openmic group on Steem.. you may not remember, but that’s where we first met. I did a few submissions and helped judge a few times. And no, I’m not a big deal in the slightest. Just someone doing random stuff all over.. mostly just trying to have some fun.

As far as your questions, I’ll try to answer them one by one but first want to clarify that my proposal specially covers negotiations and closing of deals with exchanges, as well as a planned initial PR campaign I carried out, starting as early as this article dated February 24th, which I helped coordinate and write.

I don’t want to focus on too much of the PR aspect as my proposal focuses more on the exchange deals, but feel its important as the narrative is apparently that I’m being asked to be paid for things that individuals did for free.. and I’m not.

You see, that article was before any #steemhostiletakeover twitter storm was launched. That was the first article that was important to tell the community’s story. That article was planned a few day’s before the SF happened, as a type of security measure. You see I know how Justin Sun works, as I’ve watched him in the space for nearly two years. I know when he wants to take something over or bury his wrong doings he simply uses his stage to out perform his foe in the media and essentially drowned them out, as they are unknown. One example of this would be pop network - a project he kicked off Tron as it would compete with dlive. He didn’t even get criticized for these moves though, as no one knew about them.

So when I was told there was a part of the community that was going to fight back against his attempt to force migrate the community to Tron and was asked to help, I formulated a PR plan that ensured it would not go unnoticed. I knew all I had to do was get the community’s story out there, get people to see it and the community would do the rest. Why? Because this community is badass.

I worked with Brady from Coindesk, who I knew previously and had worked with him on Steem coverage before, to ensure the story was heard. We worked on a few on the initial articles together and I set up interviews for many etc from the moment of the soft fork, to the HF (hostile takeover) to the launch of Hive.. my goal was to help give the community the eyes they would need and the community would do the rest. My initial work on the communication/PR side lasted a few weeks, starting in February and then the community took over.

I’m saying this as at no time have I ever stated the community played no role or that somehow they didn’t matter. In fact that’s an outside narrative saying that and it’s getting old. As you can see my actions have never gone against this community and I’m sick of all of a sudden being accused of such.

After I had achieved what I set out to do - ensure the community was heard, I was done. I had no intention of doing anything else in the slightest in regards to behind the scenes launch for Hive.

Then I had an old contact pop up from Binance (I explain this in my post), and then decided that if I had the opportunity I needed to get them to stop their role in the takeover. I worked with them to stop voting witnesses and power down. This then started the conversation about participating in the airdrop and eventually trying to get them to list HIVE (this was in early March).

I was then asked to help with other exchange aspects, and immediately starting filling out applications, working on legal aspects, gathering relevant information to fill out multiple 20 page exchange listing applications and helping where I could.

We had a bump in the road with exchanges and that led to some issues between individuals involved and communication not being clear, individuals not working in the best interest of the community. At that point is when I took over negotiations. This was in mid/late March.

From there I spent every day in a multiple chat rooms with exchanges working through all aspects of listing - applications, code audits, legal memos, marketing planning and then of course, negotiations.

It’s common practice to pay for exchange listings in this space. They can range from 50k - 1M. The starting place for some we were involved with was 500K. Others 150K. The individual working on exchanges suggested this amount be paid from the DHF as it was normal practice and “we will return more value than that just by being listed”.

Many of us thought that was an outrageous amount and refused. They said “Well that’s what we charge.”

Some communication stopped after that and we continued to push the community story while pointing to the volume on Bittrex. I worked with many of these exchanges daily negotiating to try to get them to see the value. I worked them down to eventually a free listing and a giveaway to their customers/users. I did that. I was the one in the room negotiating and closing deals. At no point have I ever said the community didn’t play a role, but I was the one in that room and I was the one working day and night on that deal, me. Am I the only one who played any role in the listings, nope and never said I did.. but I closed the deals I mentioned in my proposal and that’s the reason for it. So I guess I’m a bit confused why the idea that somehow I’m taking credit for what the community did, and many comments of “well I did as much as her”.. I find that a bit insulting to be honest.

I never took away from the community’s role in anything, please stop trying to take away my role.

Now as far as your questions -

Without playing the modesty card, and with every single ounce of honesty in you, do you really think this proposal would go through if it were done by me or any other member of the community?

Sure let’s be real here, many people here don’t like me. I understand that I perhaps have some big votes behind me when I post, but if you look at who is supporting my proposal or vouching for my work, they don’t even like me and I’ve had bad history for many. Why does that matter? Because it’s about my work, which they witnessed, and not about fucking liking me.

So yes, without a doubt if someone was in that room busting their ass like I was since February, yes I think they could see a proposal for that work approved.

Would you vote for a proposal like this?

Yup, I am voting for other core team proposals and will vote for hopefully the future ones coming, as many people busted ass to build the core of Hive. And I think that’s something that should be paid from the community fund, as we don’t have a Steemit inc dumping 800k a month to pay their devs anymore, we have to pay our own. I think $100k a year is a damn good deal. Feel free to look up some average salaries for blockchain tech.

Would you be fine with everyone in the community wrote proposals for remuneration for their contribution during the hostile takeover?

Depends on their contributions. Were they also posting often and being voted by many stakeholders for their efforts spreading the word of Hive? As there was quite an effort to support those doing so, by many.

I support anyone making a proposal for contributions they did that improved the ecosystem, that’s what it’s there for. Then consensus decides if they agree with that value.

Would your $30k contribution matter if the community didn't react and take to tweeting and creating awareness?

I don’t believe tweeting alone would have gotten listings, no. I don’t think tweeting alone would have gotten Hive the news coverage it did, no. I do believe, 100% that our community is what gives us value and with the right tools and the right stage, they shine. My attempt, as I stated, was to try to set the stage on the Pr aspects. The community response was a huge part of the success of Hive.

But I think you are missing a major aspect of what getting an exchange listing entails, and as much as I think the community played a huge role.. someone also had to do the administrative work, legal work, and negotiating. That wasn’t done through tweets.

Also important to note that no part of the proposal payment is guaranteed, many fall out of funding and end up “partially funded”. I also am continuing to work on additional exchange listings whether funded or not.

Are you insinuating that all the exchanges we got listed on were exclusively as a result of your input because this is how it seems?

Nope, and I never implied as much. Do I think I am the reason that we eventually got free listings when others wanted to pay? Yes. Do I think some would have gave in eventually, maybe. All I know is where we started and the intense negotiations that took place. Do I think public pressure helped with that absolutely. That was the goal.

In your proposal, you used "we" regularly and I'll quote one instant above. Are you insinuating that the only reason Hive got listed and attention was because of this closed group of individuals(Three of you)?

I think I’ve answered this one a few times so I’ll clarify my quote you shared and what led to this question -

“ But with some ingenuity from the group as well as showcasing the power of the community and our story, we were able to satisfy legal requirements as well as show why no centralized company was needed.”

You see Hive is a fork with no entity or company behind it. It doesn’t have its own legal memo to show legal proof it’s not a security. It doesn’t have a CEO to take liability. It doesn’t have a code audit etc.. this was a huge hurdle to get listed. In fact it was a total roadblock. Luckily while working with Bittrex, Netuoso came up with an idea that helped us get through that roadblock and move forward. It was a way to use the Steem legal memos (since Hive was a fork) and a legal doc from another chain which Ruled that a forked token with the same economics (like our exact fork) fell under the same non security as the predecessor chain. The combination of these two docs is the only way we got listed on the big exchanges, as they legally require these things. I don’t think tweets could have done that.

So, I’ve never once said the community and it’s efforts did not play a role, I’ve said the work I did was completely different.

I understand that a certain individual has an X on my back and is spreading a narrative, and I guess I’ve had enough of the bullshit. My proposal outlines my contributions, that’s it. It’s not taking away from anyone else’s. Individuals can vote it or not, I’m not pushing anyone to.

But my proposal is not about “tweets” or “getting the word out” it’s about saving the community hundreds of thousands of dollars in listings and doing the intense labor needed to accomplish it.

If someone feels their contributions need compensation, they can make their own as well.

I will say the response is a bit interesting. We pay authors 20k, 30k etc which they pull out of the ecosystem and their contributions are their posts. When we have people working on core code or aspects that help the whole hive platform.. we think they should do it out of the kindness of their heart.

I’d much rather shit post and get paid.. you can see I didn’t do much of that the last few months, I was too busy doing the aspects I described above.

If people want to insult me, fine. My actions are what they are and I stand behind them. I’d love to be able to show “proof” by sharing all chat logs back to feb but that would probably lead to delisting and possibly ruin relationships with future exchanges, as they required me to sign a NDA and don’t take too kindly to corporate negotiations being made public.. which is sort of common practice everywhere else in the world.

I have witnesses to my work, I have a paper trial many stakeholders have seen and I’m standing behind my actions and will work harder to somehow find a way to be transparent and open in communication with the community about each task, without negatively affecting the relationship between Hive and exchanges. I’m currently attempting to find the best way to do that.

Sorry for my novel, but I guess when ones on trial they have the right to tell their story.

Thanks.”


A few additional responses for context

(Please see post for full conversation)

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You can see a bit more of the convo on his post and hope it helps clarify some aspects for others.

I think we should question all things and push for transparency, but some of the attacks I’m hearing are not factual in the slightest and I guess I felt it was time to say so.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I don’t expect anything from anyone or feel I’m entitled. But I also won’t just allow a specific individual to lie about me anymore or twist my actions into something they aren’t to fit their narrative. I’ll use my stake if I need to, as misinformation being spread to “prove a point” is not even remotely beneficial for anyone.

If there are concerns about something I’ve asked for, that’s understandable. But I stand behind my actions and contributions and I believe the individuals vouching for that work should mean something.

As I said in the comments above, I will work on being more transparent and try to find a way to document the work more clearly for the community itself. I have some hurdles to overcome in that regard (due to what I explained above), but am working on it.

I hope perhaps this brings some clarity or at least sets the record straight on what I’m actually claiming my contributions are, and that in no way have I ever been against this community or stated they didn’t matter.

Thanks.

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Wow my name got on the trending list. I should ask questions more often lol. It was a great conversation, and I'm glad we had it. All that's left now is for Bill Gates to answer his own questions 😄

You dont deserve 30k. Thats all i have to say on that.

Side note:
Dont put decent folks in the radar of your attack dogs.
I put myself out there, I did it knowingly. If someone should take the brunt of it, its me.

Then don't vote my proposal, I've never said I "deserve" anything. I have submitted a proposal for past and future work. Consensus can decide if it finds it valuable and for how long.

You're the only one attacking, and I have no "attack dogs" to send anyways .. not even sure what you mean exactly.. as I'm thanking Belemo in this post.

But I will say if you keep attacking me I will gladly downvote any BS about me, as I've had enough of your biased and non factual attacks that stem from an ongoing issue you have with me that has been going on for years.

Go "prove your point" somewhere else I’m done with you manipulative BS.

Consensus can decide if it finds it valuable and for how long.

Actually that is a fair statement. Even if someone thinks she does not deserve $30K for here work, she does for sure deserve something in between. So since we have no bid options on the proposal mechanism we can vote for the proposal and remove our votes when we believe she reached a fair amount... It makes sense.

I can't see how this puts Belemo in a bad light. He raised some questions and wasn't rude.

I agree. He was very polite and respective of Justine and her proposal.

Does it really matter, not like any of the farmers deserve the rewards they've been taking for years and it's pretty obvious to anyone visiting what a joke it is to call it a reward platform maybe 5% of what's on trending could even be called content of any regard

Hi Justineh, I have been following closely the events after you submitted your proposal for consideration.... I'll try to comment on my perspective of how I see things and I will dare to give some recommendations.

I know that with the virus issue and the huge asshole JS is, many don't hold the Chinese culture with high regard atm, but I always push for no overgeneralization, Chinese culture and history is filled with great things that cannot be tainted with the attitude of a few... That being said there's an idiom in Chinese that goes like: the forest is really big, every kind of bird exist within it. The meaning is that you shouldn't be surprised to the degree some people can be really toxic because it's just part of the human nature to have some individuals to be a constant pain for many others (just as JS was for us during many weeks)... I'm not labeling your detractors here, they are some that have been raising reasonable concerns and this call just for a more detailed explanation of your proposal, such as the one you just made. So please, don't feel tired be the bumps down the road, because first there are going to be many more bumps and second so far I think you're doing a terrific job, so please enjoy the fact that your doing your best and your getting terrific results out of your efforts as well... If you encounter someone who's being a complete asshole, please try your best to learn something from him and go for what will nurture you in a most successful and wise person.

About your proposal in particular I would like to clarify the way I see things... You're perspective is that compared to the 800k a month the former mismanaged company dumped on a monthly basis to get 10% of what current devs are doing on Hive we have a team doing such a terrific work for less than 100k per month. So you see a great improvement there (I agree), but please keep in mind that the majority of the community never saw Ned dumping the Steem, imagine if we could see a post there with a live following up how a sell order of 800k worth of Steem, imagine the huge shitstorm that could have generated lol... Here on Hive (thanks to our awesome devs) we have a live following up of the process each proposal undergoes before passing the return proposal benchmark... So it's like the little demon inside some people don't dare to be so vocal when criticizing the pay rates for devs because they don't have a clue about coding, but when they see your proposal it's like : "hey I could have done that, in fact I did a lot to contribute to achieve that goal, thus shouldn't I be paid as well? She gets to be paid because of her pretty face and because of her connections with whales here, such a corrupt oligarchy the witnesses and whales have established on Hive!!" (Factor in coronavirus lockdown stress into that and you get a clearer image of the reason some people behave like they have been behaving).

So, are they wrong? I tend to think they are just failing to provide valid points to support their claims so yes so far I think they are just being annoying... But they're opinion should just be labeled as trolish or just ill-intended? No! I think you should use the situation to polish the mechanism how proposals are made and explained to justify the budget requested from the DHF (I know core devs and whales listen to you, so please let me know what do you think about this idea of mine, if you agree I and pass it on I think I might have contributed somehow to this place and that's very rewarding for me)... I think devs should pour more information about the rates similar works get paid in the Industry and compare it with the ones they requested. They should explain with more insight the value their proposal adds to the platform, so more professional and factual decisions can be made about proposals and hence we achieve yet another milestone for our great community! A professional-managed, self replenishing fund that is a great hedge that increases exponentially the chances of our success.

You might ask why they should go all te way out and add the burden to explain their proposals with that degree of detail? Well because it's a better approach to do it this way, on Hive you're supposed to be a shareholder just by holding HP... So people submitting proposals to the DHF should submit a proposal to a shareholder board with hundreds of passionate, dedicated and sometimes idiotic stakeholders but as idiotic some might be others are just brilliant and I think we should always push ourselves to do things with the best quality we can...

This is a whole new level from the management procedures we are used to, but hey this is decentralization! This is us creating a new paradigm!! So bring on the challenges so we can tell the great history of how we overcame them 😊

Best regards.

you have my full support, you do amazing job for HIVE not just about exchanges

Let me first say and state that I 100% will be voting for your proposal (with the minor Stake that I have...).

Hopefully, people will get a better understanding of the magnitude and importance of projects like these. This can be a hard thing to do as it is not something entirely tangible like a wooden table for example. If you would like to be more transparent regarding your future actions, perhaps downloading a clocking plugin for your OS would be helpful (to time and track your workflow), or perhaps documenting parts of your endeavors/process would be deemed acceptable by those who would like to learn more about the scope of the project like time-management, people-skills and being able to write fluently in (Business) English to get the job done.

As long as I have known you, you've always been 100% honest with me, real and direct with your communications. You know exactly what you want, and maybe this felt weird to ask, but hey let me tell this: you know exactly what you're doing, and you're doing the right thing by doing a proposal like this.

For those who wonder about 30.000 HBD and feel that is "way" too much; divide that to 60 days and a normal working day (8-10 hrs). If you can hire someone to do the same as Justine for less than 50 bucks p/hr and wishes to get paid in crypto, HBD for that matter, please hire that person instead. But also teach that person the ins and outs of blockchain technology in general, as well as how the eco-system of HIVE works.

I hope this proposal gets through and looking forward to seeing that it will be a stepping stone for other entrepreneurs that would like to help the HIVE blockchain.

Regarding the comment "I see this proposal asking this much", I would highly suggest you to stop comparing. It is their choice what to propose and it is your choice to back it or not.

I dont think the community at large has a problem with junstineh being funded. Its more issues about the details and how this transpired and wording, etc.

Thank you for tuning in memehub, I understand that you may have some concerns regarding the DAO funding of Justine. I agree that the community at large has no problem with Justine being funded. I for one, don't have a problem with it.

Could you elaborate more on your own issues regarding these "details, wording and etc"? I have no clue what you mean.

Justine, major congratulations on your extraordinary work on the exchange listings.

I know there were lots of other people involved and the community played a big part but achieving big things like this always comes down to one or two people building relationships and doing a lot of back and forth work.

I have voted for your proposal and @jpbliberty wants to engage your skills and connections with the exchanges to get them to sign up for the Crypto Class Action. See latest update here: https://peakd.com/crypto-class-action/@jpbliberty/update-on-crypto-class-action-over-usda1-billion-in-claims-signed-up

Lets be in contact on Discord (@apshamilton) or Telegram https://t.me/akivah.

This is a paid gig.

Could you please provide a breakdown on the hours spent on the past work and future planned work (related to your proposal), and what would you consider to be your hourly wage? Thank you.

I did so in my post but can do so a bit more here. This, imo, is more of a contract style job proposal and not a hired hourly worker but will break it down the best I can:

I started full time work on the things described in my proposal on February 20th. I was actively working on the aspects listed in my proposal everyday since that time, every single day including nights and weekends. Some days may have been 4hrs.. others were 10+. I did this everyday. So let’s just go with 8hrs a day on average to get a baseline.

Past work completed
Feb 20th through now = 74 days x 8, 592 hours.
Committed Future work
Now until July 8th = 63 days x 8, 504 hours.

Total = 1096 hours total / 30,000 HBD (if fully funded and IF hbd holds its peg) = $27.37/hour.

Now for the sake of fairness I originally just estimated the work put in at 40hrs a week even though it has been more up until this point and I assume will continue to be. But If we just go with 40hrs a week instead to get a baseline for the whole time period worked and that which will be (through at least July 8th):

19 weeks x 40hrs a week = 760 hrs/30000 HBD = $39.47/hr

This of course only is factual if the whole proposal is funded and never falls out of consensus and of course the “hourly rate” depends on HBD staying pegged at $1, as we know is not guaranteed.

At anytime (if it’s approved) it can fall back out of approval and perhaps just be partially funded. This is an option if stakeholders feel that perhaps they do not agree with the full amount asked for.

Is it a decent amount of money? Absolutely. It’s also a skilled job that involved high level negotiations with large corporations as well as many other aspects. I do feel this hourly wage is inline with the work being done.

I do not feel entitled, but I feel it’s an overall fair assessment considering the community funds saved due to the work put in. I do think there should be a better way to track such hours and work and am working on a way to do that.

Hopefully that helps answer your questions.

Thank you for your detailed reply. I tend to be a numbers person so seeing this concrete data makes me feel more comfortable in considering this proposal.

Yeah Well said. If you wanna get paid, then at least clarify your past effort in man hour spent(daily wager) and the future work you are promising. And is there a line of action for future work, or we are just gonna take your good work on it?

Have you read any posts, the proposal or anything else? As I've actually covered everything you are discussing.

For me, with everything going on, it is overwhelming to read these proposals and responses etc.

This definitely sounds preposterous to many people because, how could you judge something without looking into it and gathering a further understanding.

But I understand where they are coming from in this tldr era of scepticism.

I wanted to take a minute or 2 to just say thank you for spending a lot of time help helping all our investment, and not just money but our time is not going to waste here on hive.

I will leave this tab open so I can read this later and catch up with what is going on :)

Hi @justineh.

First of all thanks for all the great work that you have done up until this point to get #hive noticed and onto exchanges. It's a very important task and I'm sure that it took a lot of time and effort on your behalf and a lot of us appreciate it, even if not everybody does. With that said you've been here long enough to know that there will always be the people trying to drag others into the ground no matter what they do.

My main problem with the proposal and what i'm sure has gotten a lot of users on the opposite side of it has to do with the phrasing where you look for compensation for work completed.

In my opinion, when a person does a job regardless of how well or time consuming it is. They cannot then come back and look to be compensated for it unless there was something put in place before the work was done. At the time of doing the work you were putting in your time and effort as a #hive stakeholder on behalf of the community and that is to be commended. Just like a lot of witnessess, devs, users and external people.

What I could and would have gladly supported is a proposal stating the work that you have done on behalf of #hive in the past. That you feel we need a person working towards all of the stated goals and with your past experiences in this field would like to be funded to cover this area.

As a person in business i would need to see a plan for work to be completed, regular updates on work that you have completed and a rough estimation of your costs and time being put towards the work. As you have stated in a lot of places that the wages are on par with a centralized blockchain company which we are not. We are a small start up and any centralized company would need a job outline and progress reports to hire an employee.

I feel that funding on the DAO should be a lot more structured in general and that similar to yourself, any project should have at least a prototype or reference of work completed, before looking to get funded to bring it further. We have a great chance to do better than with #steem and having smart, qualified and enthusiastic people working towards the same goal would be a huge advantage for us.

I'm only a small stake holder and think that you have done a great job so far but this is how I feel about the proposal and as a reference for future proposals by other people going forward. We will need funds for people to complete work as a decentralized eco-system but I would like to see it from a more business perspective if the fund will be paying them to complete it.

I've covered this in the above post and why tracking progress is a bit more difficult. I am working on a better way to do so.

As far as past work, I'm not entirely sure what the issue is there? I did work, work no one else was doing and work that was vital to be done. I state I will continue doing such work.

We have no Steemit inc now and things need to be done for the core of Hive, we have developers and others working on many aspects and are/will be seeing proposals for work completed as well as work to be done.

The idea that this is a bill without a contract is not really how any of this works and this is blockchain and crypto, not normal business.. things work differently.

My proposal isn't a bill, it's a proposal for accomplishments done.. which imo saved the community money, and work to be accomplished. Many stakeholders knew I was doing the work, so it's not as if I just sprung this on people.

If the community was not aware, yes I need to improve upon communication of work going forward.

This isn't a bill, I expect nothing. It's a proposal that, if stakeholders feel is worth supporting, they can do so. The option of partial payment is also an option (which I cover in another comment).

I think most of the negative response is due to thinking I'm asking to be paid for tweeting and spreading the word, when in fact my work was very very different. This post is to help clarify that aspect.

I fully respect people not agreeing with the amount and support them in voicing that.

How do you justify the amount relative to the other amounts requested by proposals that are for payout to individuals for contribution? (not payouts to something like the one to burn extra funds) Most proposals I saw by core developers are on the magnitude of 200-300HBD while yours is asking for 500HBD. Even peakd only requests 395HBD. I dont believe I saw this addressed in the proposal or asked in @belemo's post.

EDIT: for additional thoughts -

  1. I think talking about your proposal in total sum is a bad idea, talk about the payout per day and its size relative to other core proposal rewards that are comparable to yours.
  2. Assure the community that this includes your continued work on hive or clarify that it doesnt. I believe a lot of blow back is this is for "past" work. Maybe, you did clarify this in your proposal but it did not pop out at me from what I recall. So the people that glance your proposal most likely wont catch it either, hence adding more fuel to the fire this is sparking.
  3. I personally believe you have a solid case to have a proposal pass, though as pointed out, I think how much and the way it was communicated/stipulated is the root issue to hammer out with the public consciousness.

Duration does need to be taken into account. PeakD's proposal when made encompassed almost $300k in total funding ask, which is 10x this proposal even though the daily payout is lower. As I just glanced, it looks like we're currently spending only about $800 of our $4800 possible daily spend, so a proposal of this level is still very sustainable.
(Not to speak for Justine... just working through the numbers myself!)

My proposal is a short term, to cover 4 mths worth of work. Yes it's technicality "asking" for 500hbd/day (for 60days) but that is due to it being for work already completed as well.

It represents 120+ days in a 60 day "pay window" so while the "daily" is for more, I am not asking to be paid 500hbd a day for the days I worked, it's just what the pay window is set up as. It’s closer to 200hbd a day when you look at it with actual time covered.

The other proposals are for longer time periods, as in the core development at 275hbd a day for 365 days.

Mine is a shorter term, simply contract work and not a full time salary.

The displays I think can be confusing, but I'm not "asking for more" than the devs, which many seem to be misunderstanding.

Also, there is nothing saying the proposal has to be funded and it’s very common for proposals to be partially funded as well.

Edit:
Seeing the questions added. It’s impossible to not consider the total amount as quite frankly that matters. Someone asking for 100hbd/day for 365 days of payment for the same amount of work may “look” like less, but it’s not. The daily amount and the duration of payment should be considered.

As far as work - my proposal states it’s for past and future work. I’m committing to working another 2 months at the same level of time as now and outlined my goals - get the big exchanges and help turn many aspects over to the community somehow.

IMHO - I think maybe readjusting the proposal to not worry with the "past" work but ask for funding more like the Devs for ongoing future work would go over a ton better with the community and work out the same for you in the end, maybe better monetarily, unless you are not planning to continue the type of work you are doing with hive into the future. Bringing up getting paid for past contributions just doesnt ever seem like a good move in general. Think if a friend did something nice for ya then later sent ya a bill for it; I believe this is analogy conveys the negative emotional community response. Now if you do anything for Hive in the future, people will say "well, is she going turn around an ask for a proposal later to be paid for this?". Does what I am tryina say make sense?

That’s fair, but I think asking for payment before you actually show you are able to do something is not very good practice.

It’s not a bill, it’s a proposal.. people can choose to do as they wish, but no I don’t think my past work should not be considered. I’ve covered this quite a bit in the post above as why. And I have stated now a few times how long I’m committed to do this work as well as help to organize it to be done in a more decentralized way in the future.

I think most of the outrage is due to a false narrative being spread. I list my contributions in great detail many places, people can choose to support or not, that’s how the system works.

You already know that your proposal will pass but I wouldn't call that consensus, at least not a community consensus but a consensus between the big stakeholders.

I don't have any doubt that you did a good job but the amount that you're asking for is excessive for many of us. A lot of people won't complaint about it because they're afraid of express an opinion against those who are way more powerful than them.

If you would simply reformulate your proposal I grant you that not only you would have the support of those whales but the gratitude of all the community.

Think it carefully because by perseverating on this you could harm more than you helped to the proyect. Having in count to all instead of a few, you could have your real consensus and the next time that you make a proposal probably (after looking to your works merits) they would approve without problems even a bigger salary for you.

So imho, you're commiting a big mistake here.

DPoS consensus, thus how the platform you are on is designed. I would say that no not every proposal will have full community consensus, but hey neither does every post. If every post and therefore every payout had to be approved by the large majority of the community, I assume authors rewards would look quite different. But alas, that’s how the system is designed.

As far as revising, I would love to hear ideas on how to do such. I break down the hourly wage in another comment as well as describe how “showing work” is difficult in this regard but am working on ways to improve it.

I think the idea that I’m doing harm is a bit odd, but would most definitely love to hear tips on how to improve.

DPoS consensus

Yes I know how works this blockchain, that doesn't mean is the ideal though. The ideal would be obtain as much consensus is possible, is not too much to ask to calm down the waters instead of having a lot of people pissed off with this.

As far as revising, I would love to hear ideas on how to do such.

Easy peasy ask your voters to retire the votes and add a new one, this solution is obvious I don't know how you aren't aware of this.

I think the idea that I’m doing harm is a bit odd, but would most definitely love to hear tips on how to improve.

It isn't odd, divide a community is harm it. Here is an essay that says "you will win but you won't convince" instead of trying to win you should be trying to convince us all (the more people the better you don't need the 100% logically).

Again, I would support your proposal and I bet that all who are complaining about it as well. I admire the tenacity, that speaks well of you but don't confuse it with stubborness.

@justineh

The "past" work aspect of your proposal would be your sticking point for passing your proposal on your ongoing future work.Also the hypothetical of "asking for payment before you actually show you are able to do something is not very good practice" is not reprehensible as compared to asking for payment after the fact.

I know it is not a bill; the point of that analogy was to convey an emotion that your proposal can induce. If you understand that then you'll be able to better maneuver this situation.

Your last statement is not the best PR on this, if you care about such things.

I would prefer to feel in a strong position to support you in this. Hence bringing the points up that makes it feel hard for me to do so.

There is a win/win/win here were you get funding and the community is happy about it instead of tore over it, but itll be up to you to get it there or not in the end. I feel that if you stick hard to this proposal as is, then it will cost you more in the long run in terms of the community that would support your proposal under the proper terms, but not as is now.

@justineh "people can choose to support or not" doesnt come off right to me from you given what I have seen of you out in about on discord and such; it feels disappointing somehow. A lot of people look to you as a representative of Hive and of them as community members. Personally, Id would have guessed if you received backlash that you would work with the community, but would not take on the "people can choose to support or not" mentality as such in the circumstances.

@rubencress you can read my comments in this thread for more of what I see in the circumstances.

I'm open to discussion if that's what you want. Could you try to approach your issues more objectively and less subjective? It's normal to share what is important to you, I respect that, but it helps to know that not everyone shares the same opinion. It would make it easier to get to the core of your issues.

But based upon what I just read from your comments;

  • You're comparing completely different proposals
  • You're sharing multiple concerns around the payment
  • You're doubting/questioning/need assurance that she would continue her work on the project as described in the proposal
  • You believe it is mostly to cover expenses for past work
  • You're sharing that it is unfair to ask to get paid for past work

What you're sharing is simply a dead-end, leaving very little room for discussion or a solution as one issue is in direct conflict with another. I'm not sure if you're aware of that, or if this is purposely intended.

You judge her for asking partial payment for her past work, right? At the same time, you want assurance that she continues her "past work" work. How would you value the continuation of that work, if you already shared your opinion that her past work is basically worth nothing? If you want to leave "past work" out of the equation, then judge the proposal with "past work" out of the equation.

For promised tasks described in the proposal, even if the outcome is not as we desired, $50HBD per hour I consider being undervalued, as it is still quite a risk since it is not a direct pay in FIAT. I'm leaving this "pay for past work" totally out when I'm measuring the amount of requested payment and judge her proposal based on her skills and previous achievements.

Which makes me think of a possible meet-in-the-middle solution; I'm not here to fill in the blanks for @Justineh, nor do I wish to talk on her behalf, but let's say, if you have a promise that says that X% of requested pay-out will remain in the platform, as well as X% of the pay-out will be extracted and exchanged for FIAT to cover expenses, would you be more sensible to support this proposal?

Also, I want to point out that the "past work" you're referring to is something that I would consider to be a USP in this case, and an additional incentive to pledge my vote.

Keep in mind as sort of hinted above, Justine's expertise in particular to the Hive blockchain is important. A lot of people don't understand the inner workings of a community ( look at Justin Sun as an example & Steem ) and figured they can come waltzing right in and pull all this off. Just imagine how long it would take to ramp up some random person why he is doing this for the community and understanding all tech behind it ? It would be a nightmare and would take many, many months more time to get the listings we have now . So how is that priced in? I'm not sure if it is, or maybe it is. I'm just pointing out the level of understanding our community and the inner workings along with the tech behind it has some huge value imho. It is hard to find who actually understand it , let alone care about it.

Edit: also, keep in mind paying for something after its been done probably has a higher price point. I could be wrong.

I dont think any serious critic is disputing her value or to fund her. Its more the details, how this transpired, relative scale of the flat out number on the proposal regardless of how the math works out, the initial communication, the "past work" aspect, and now I would say even some of her responses to the blacklash. I want to to be grounded in supporting her getting funding. This is all unnecessary, all it would take is a revised proposal after some back and forth with the community and everyone would win.

Her sticking hard to this proposal would feel like iDubbz standing behind his gf's onlyfans to his community backlash; its just so outta character. (just to add some humor)

Hello @justineh. A couple of days ago I was kinda "loud" on the Hive Discord server regarding how The proposal system is in my opinion "overpaying" some of the proposals that are in there. That's is a topic I'm disclosing in a post I have days writing and will surely and cordially invite you to read when the time comes. I've done some research on you, and you seem to have helped the ecosystem which I applaude because we all are on the same team on that regard.

This, dear Justineh, in my humble opinion, it's a lot

image.png

And it's a game changer if you add the numbers and are planning on staking.

Same here

image.png
image.png

And that is only one person.

Make no mistake, noone has the right to set the price of your work, you, and only you,knows its real value and effort made. But again, we would like to see or at least have an explanation of all the things that happened behind the scenes which made all the listings possible, etc.

I Really do hope you support the communities and hive supporters overall, the power of communities shall never be understimated, here's an example!

image.png

Bottom line is, the proposal system is flawed and in some way "exploitable", without a downvote option. I'm going to think whithin reason and trust you are going to do the best with that incoming stake. We're no "enemies", We are HIVEANS, Best Regards!

https://twitter.com/TheRealSnowJon

Can we please get an update on your work? You get paid a lot and it's been a while.

Hello,

I’ve been giving pretty regular updates to stakeholders (150+) and will do the same for anyone who would like them. Due to the sensitive nature of exchange work it was decided that posting it in public would not be feasible.

You can contact me on discord - Justine#8837, telegram -justineontheblock, or email at [email protected] and I can share overall updates of what is being done.

Thank you, I will mail you from [email protected]

@urun I’ve stated here how to contact me about the work done. Feel free to stop spamming me on twitter now.

Content creators get paid. The witnesses and devs also. So i dont see any problem that u get a pay also for your work.
I dont want to write too much, i voted for your proposal. But of course i am just a small fish here.
But hope i am not alone and u will get it.

Can you even show some chat log stating you sealed the deal? Wheres your proof? Im suprised how no one asked for it yet..

Just about to Tweet this and will be writing a proposal for my work shortly.

Excellent value for money given what was achieved. I hope this post convinces more people regarding the value you added.

First and foremost, well done on all of your accomplishments in bringing HIVE alive. Your proposal in principal is a a good one and I will support it. It does however, raise a more important issue for the community going forward.

The one question I have is who will pay? From what account will it be taken from?

We escaped a very unJUST situation but now what. Since there is no HIVE, Inc. who will direct the future of HIVE?

I have thought from the beginning of our new little experiment that there is a need for dedicated members of the community who are willing to work for the community. The one danger in your proposal is that it could become a recurring event for anyone to come forward and make a claim for payment.

Do we have a dedicated HIVE account to make such payments?

Who has the KEYS to this account?

I think going forward that HIVE does need to have an account to fund future and ongoing projects to continue to grow.

I also believe that this account should be funded through delegations (with zero payment to the delegators) wherein the work of expanding the community and development can be funded. The account can post about all the ongoing projects and thus fund the account. In addition, perhaps the account could also be funded by being a community witness account????

Once again, for what it is worth, thank you for your great efforts.

read into the proposals system. that will answer most of your questions and provide a lot of info

You have an X on your back because you're making a difference. That's how you know you're over the target. We love you. Keep up the good work.

Whenever I asked why some posts of great quality do not receive the proper rewards, I was told the community knows better and that if a post is worth it, the community will see to it getting proper rewards. So, this is my opinion for your proposal, let the community reward you as seen fit; everyone beleiving you did a great job (I'm not saying you did not) can give you big votes; ain't that how the system is supposed to work? No need to get direct rewards/tips/etc by any fund, there should not be such funds in the first place.

I support your work 100%. Without getting the story of JS and the take over in the crypto magazines and sites, Hive would be suffering right now. Thanks for your work. I appreciate you closing all those deals.

Hey Justine, this post clarified a lot of things behind your proposal, thanks for putting it out there. You're work is much appreciated!

You can thank me too though 😁

Haha, sure, thanks for digging in further :P

Thanks for “clarifying” things.
I just want to say that I am disappointed about this proposal and how you handled the critics.
Instead of taking a step back, and maybe lower the amount to a reasonable amount, or some other solution, you kept pushing it.
Everyone knew that you already had whale votes, so this whole thing was never an “ask”.

To each critic you reply with:

  • you guys dont know everything what was going on in the background
  • I managed to prevent money what would have been paid to exchanges
  • I dont take full credits, dont take away community efforts

You never took a step back. You never questioned why community is responding like this to your proposal.

I think it is bad to create such a proposal for past work, without any notice or whatsoever to community. The fact that the community could do NOTHING to stop this proposal to go through is quite a big deal.

Your argument against past work is a no go is just unbelievable:

That’s fair, but I think asking for payment before you actually show you are able to do something is not very good practice.

Come on! This is just bullshit.

I dont know why you didnt seek for consensus with the community, never took a step back. Why? Was your ego in the way?

Sorry to say this, but the way this proposal went through, and the way you chose to defend this made me question about the fairness of HIVE. And as far as I can tell, I am not alone.

I just hope this kind of actions dont destroy the positive vibe HIVE started with.

I’m working hard for Hive, the only negativity I see is from a select few who seem to have a problem with anyone getting any sort of payment, unless it’s rewards on a post to those they like.

I’ve listened to critique and have made additional efforts and will continue, but quite frankly the “everything you do sucks” with no actual suggestions or effort to help in any manner is a little old.

If you don’t agree with it, I fully respect that, but to say the community didn’t have a choice is absurd. The community has a choice and they are making it. I have had many messages of support that out number the few voices of rage.. so I think you’re over stating how “the community” is responding.

I didn’t see anyone who is loudly criticizing all those seeking compensation jumping up to work day and night for Hive. I didn’t see them offer to assist, pay for giveaways, give accounts away, organize anything or do anything else needed to launch a new project like hive.

I’m not entirely sure what the issue is and why many are only focusing on one aspect that seems more personal than anything else.

I think my fee is fair, I doubt it will be paid out in full.. but here I am continuing to fight for the community that chooses to shit on me any chance they get.

So please, please let me know how I can make you feel better about my work. But if you are just going to tell me I’m “dividing a community” or “making things negative” than perhaps you need more to do.. as it seems you are set and determined to just find something to throw a fit about.

Hive is not fair, nothing is fair and this is a DPOS system.. which isn’t “fair” either.. so I’m not sure what you want there.

What I find really, truly unfair is that many here seem to praise a shit posting author and their ability to pull over $20k out of the platform.. but how fucking dare someone work for Hive rather than themselves and then ask for compensation after they have shown a bit of success in doing the work and an effort to continue working for those successes for the community.. that’s not fair. Just upvote shit posts and make them huh? Sorry but I think Hive deserves better, I’m sorry if you don’t agree.

I’ve read quite a lot critics from various people in different posts about this proposal, so it’s definitely not “a few voices”. You are again underestimating, just like when you underestimated the community factor in listings, articles etc.

You already have some big whales votes, so there is really not much a regular plankton/minnow/dolphin can do about this proposal. And this is really not good. Something needs to be changed about this proposal system.

I really have nothing personal against you, I just share my opinion about this. I do think you did a good job, and you should be rewarded. But I just dont agree with the way you have done it, and I think the amount is out of proportion:

  • asking for things you have done in the past, without noticing/letting know that you expect being paid. Your argument “want to be paid after I have shown value” doesnt make any sense.
  • the fact that you valued past work yourself. If you come up with a price for future work, that would be something to consider for the community. But now you’ve put a price, and dont want to do anything about it.
  • that you said you wanted to create this proposal instead of getting high rewards for your posts. So it’s one way or the other, but you WILL get it?

For the last time...
Thank you for all the work you have done and will do. I appreciate your hard work and your achievements.

But I’d prefer knowing beforehand what we are up against instead of this whole thing coming as a surprise afterwards.

If you can organize, estimate things better in your future proposals, keeping in mind the lessons learned from this one, there is no reason for me not to support.

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very good writing.

follow me

Can we get an update soon?

Updates won’t be going on chain due to sensitive nature as well as this communities love for drama making it impossible to share sensitive information that could be detrimental to exchange relationships. My work is being monitored by many. People can choose to vote accordingly to what I’m able to provide.

https://hive.blog/hive/@justineh/qbtjup

Okay cool. No problem.
I have added you on discord :)

Hope all is well!

welcome to my world

@belemo basically @justineh just fucked you against the wall, like a cheap whore

Ass was sore, it's been months so I recovered 😆

I love your blogs

 4 years ago  Reveal Comment

The exchange would already had infrastructure for Hive by simply porting the Steem infrastructure. Its not the same a listing a fresh new coin.

No, it did not. But I'm not responsible for the assistance with infrastructure, the devs helping were.

Exchanges had to build all new wallets for these listings, and start from
Scratch.

It seems many seem to feel they understand how exchange listings work and are unwilling to listen to anyone telling them otherwise.

I was giving a dev perspective as a dev that works with an exchange currently. Maybe I should have stipulated more qualifiers on my statement.

In my opinion as a dev thats working with an exchange and hive atm. It would be logically deducible that creating the Hive listing would already have plenty of supporting code and experience from the code base for the steem listing. Thus lowering the development needs to perform the listing. Therefore, is not comparable to a typical listing.

@justineh I do not appreciate the derogatory comments if you are directing them at my statements. If I was incorrect on the specifics then feel free to correct but my statement was not based on nothing. Sorry I did not qualify my statement completely.

There are no derogatory comments. But to state there was an easy switch over so therefore no listing fee was needed is not factual. I cover this repeatedly as much as I can under the circumstances.

Did I make that statement?

They also are not goina pass up the opportunity to make more easy money than the listing fee just cause of the listing fee. And Hive is far from a shitcoin.